Sony MDS-JE780 C13 Read Error - Disc not spinning

[zokuchou]

Danny (a.k.a Slugbahr) sent me home with his JE780 unit that was giving the dreaded C13 error. Now this was about 4-5 months ago! Having a 1 year old boy & a busy job doesn't lend much time in fixing things. So to speed things along I am hoping to seek advice here.

I've only been able to take the lid off and look at the basics. When loading a minidisc the disc seems to load fine, the shutter is opened but one thing I did notice is that the motor doesn't run and the disc doesn't spin. This is what I suspect to be the cause of the issue.

I've taken a couple of videos and uploaded them here:

One main question I have - should the motor spin as soon as the disc is loaded? What would cause the disc not to spin?

Many thanks,

Z.

[punkrockaddict]

Doesn´t it make any sound ?Mine did make some squirrling sounds..

i once repaired a C13 failure on a JE^480 Deck. It was not easy to locate the failure.

Fortunately i had a 2nd JE480 to compare to.It was nothing more than the position of the plate where the disc sits on and gets driven from.

It was a little bit too low compared to the other Deck.I took it some mm up and it spinned the disc again and works flawlessly till now.

From the Motor there goes the pin up and on top is the plate.Maybe this could fix your C13 too but i am unsure as i can´t hear any comparable noises in your video.

just try..

btw this ain´t a JE470.It has the "netMd" on the front so this must be a JE780.

[jim.hoggarth]

The drive unit is the MDM-7X, probably the 7A or 7S1A variant. Notorious for this problem. Try moving the spindle motor (just move the spindle slightly by hand with no disc inserted). If the deck responds, it is a bad spot on the spindle motor and may work fine for months, even years, before failing again.

Alternatively, if you can't hear the focus coils operating (very quite 'whipping' noise), the optical pickup cannot focus on the tracks, and will need to be replaced. Might also be worth checking to make sure the sled returns to home at power-on to exclude this motor - but beware of pushing the sled too far away from home position. The sled will be very hard to move initially, unless you help it by turning the white gear at the back manually.

Jim

[Soundbox]

Are optical assemblies still available for this model? I have the same one and wonder whether it is worth getting one to keep as a spare.

[zokuchou]

First of all - yes, this is a 780.

When powering up / down the unit there is no motion within the mechanics of the unit, the only thing that happens it that the display comes on.

I did notice during the error the motor that moves the optical assembly does turn but yet the disc does not spin. Should this move before the disc spins or vice/versa?

I can't say I could hear any feint 'whipping noise', just a low hum (I'm guessing from the transformer)

Thanks all

Z

[sfbp]

Are optical assemblies still available for this model? I have the same one and wonder whether it is worth getting one to keep as a spare.

Prolly this guy

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251181105373

[jim.hoggarth]

First of all - yes, this is a 780.

When powering up / down the unit there is no motion within the mechanics of the unit, the only thing that happens it that the display comes on.

I did notice during the error the motor that moves the optical assembly does turn but yet the disc does not spin. Should this move before the disc spins or vice/versa?

I can't say I could hear any feint 'whipping noise', just a low hum (I'm guessing from the transformer)

Thanks all

Z

Sometimes the sled motor can quiver like this. It is difficult to be exact, but experience has taught it's either the spindle motor or optical pickup - about a 3:1 failure rate for these. But of course if you get one of these parts and replace it, it's bound to be the other.

Are you in the UK? I can do repairs on a single drive unit rather than the whole deck, so postage is much cheaper.

Jim

[Soundbox]

Prolly this guy

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251181105373

Thanks for that. I will pick up a spare as they can only get more scarce.

[sfbp]

(I fixed the title of the thread and one place in text so as not to confuse people too much)

[zokuchou]

Thanks Jim. I used to be based in the UK (and know Bradford quite well) but alas I set sail for sunnier climes a few years ago and am now based in Melbourne (with amazing local radio stations to fill up plenty of minidiscs on a weekly basis).

I'll need to check with Danny what he wants to do, although I need to check out the spindle motor first.

Thanks for everyone's help. Cheers, Z.

[reminiz]

On 9/6/2013 at 6:57 PM, zokuchou said:

Thanks Jim. I used to be based in the UK (and know Bradford quite well) but alas I set sail for sunnier climes a few years ago and am now based in Melbourne (with amazing local radio stations to fill up plenty of minidiscs on a weekly basis).

 

I'll need to check with Danny what he wants to do, although I need to check out the spindle motor first.

 

Thanks for everyone's help. Cheers, Z.

I have the exact issue myself with two of them decks. 780 and 440. Did you ever get a resolution to get the spindle motor working again? 
 

[Alex1980]

On 6/18/2020 at 5:11 PM, reminiz said:

Double post

 

Edited June 19, 2020 by Alex1980
Double post

[Alex1980]

On 6/18/2020 at 5:11 PM, reminiz said:

I have the exact issue myself with two of them decks. 780 and 440. Did you ever get a resolution to get the spindle motor working again? 
 

I quote reminiz. I'm having the exact problem with a je770 and it's definitely the spindle motor. But have no idea what to do next. I changed the insert/eject belt with a new one by myself, thinking it was the only issue but I was wrong... 

The laser works "looking" for disk but the spindle is simply dead. 

Moreover here in Italy, technichans don't even know what minidisc is (it sold a bit only in UK and Germany in Europe) and I was asked 100€ from the "professional" just by opening and looking in it... No way! 

An advice would be GREATLY APPRECIATED! 

[NGY]

27 minutes ago, Alex1980 said:

I'm having the exact problem with a je770 and it's definitely the spindle motor.

The laser works "looking" for disk but the spindle is simply dead. 

...

But have no idea what to do next.

You may want to replace the spindle motor then. I would be interested to know, how did you detect it, I mean, how do you know it is dead?

The spindle not spinning is only half the equation. Even if the laser does attempt looking for the disc, still there is a chance that it is not a dead spindle motor. It might just as well be the OP. In some cases it is just a little dust on the lens. In other cases it is just a matter of a slight change in the laser's settings. And certainly it can be a faulty laser too.

(BTW, from 100€ you can have the whole unit shipped back and forth within Europe to a real pro and also have it fixed. Or just buy a donor machine for half that much or even less, and swap the drive by yourself.)

[Alex1980]

5 minutes ago, NGY said:

You may want to replace the spindle motor then. I would be interested to know, how did you detect it, I mean, how do you know it is dead?

The spindle not spinning is only half the equation. Even if the laser does attempt looking for the disc, still there is a chance that it is not a dead spindle motor. It might just as well be the OP. In some cases it is just a little dust on the lens. In other cases it is just a matter of a slight change in the laser's settings. And certainly it can be a faulty laser too.

(BTW, from 100€ you can have the whole unit shipped back and forth within Europe to a real pro and also have it fixed. Or just buy a donor machine for half that much or even less, and swap the drive by yourself.)

Thanks a lot for the prompt reply. 

I'm assuming that is the spindle coz before before the repair the laser read the toc, normally... It recognized the disc, but then it didn't read the tracks. 

Actually it's a tricky situation. 

I can send you a short video before the belt replacement.  You can see that the disc was recorded in LP2. 

Anyways... How can I try to clean the lens safely? I'm scared to death to touch it. 

[NGY]

1 hour ago, Alex1980 said:

It recognized the disc, but then it didn't read the tracks

Well, it sounds similar to how a laser degrades. First some skipping happens during recording, then it skips playing back a good recorded track/disc, then cannot find some tracks, then does not read the TOC, finally not able to read premastered MD-s either, lastly cannot even recognize the disc.

When a disc is loaded, the drive attempts to read the lead-in area of the disc. This is a non-recordable area, very similar to the CD-s. In fact, it is much '"easier" for the laser to read it, than reading the recordable areas, like the TOC and the actual tracks. (And this is why sometimes a deck still can play the factory pressed MD-s without any problems, but cannot play the recordable MD-s).

1 hour ago, Alex1980 said:

How can I try to clean the lens safely?

Probably the safest method is to use a Sony (or other, brand make) MD lens cleaner.

Alternatively, as most of us do with a Q-tip, a drop of isopropyl alcohol, and very gentle hands. Best if you take a look at a few videos on-line - cleaning cd/dvd/md lenses are practically the same thing. When opening a deck, make sure you ground your body's/cloth's electrostatic charge before touching anything inside (a radiator, or a water pipe/tap can make a good ground).

  

 

[Alex1980]

9 minutes ago, NGY said:

Well, it sounds similar to how a laser degrades. First some skipping happens during recording, then it skips playing back a good recorded track/disc, then cannot find some tracks, then does not read the TOC, finally not able to read premastered MD-s either, lastly cannot even recognize the disc.

When a disc is loaded, the drives attempts to read the lead-in area of the disc. This is a non-recordable area, very similar to the CD-s. In fact, it is much '"easier" for the laser to read it, than reading the recordable areas, like the TOC and the actual tracks. (And this is why sometimes a deck still can play the factory pressed MD-s without any problems, but cannot play the recordable..........

 

Wow, that was a great explanation. Thank you so much. But how the heck... How can deteriorate everything so quickly and altogether (belt and the lens)??? One week before was perfectly functional and then this absurd escalation, like the deck decided to commit suicide... It wasn't like the fisiological degradation explained by you. It skipped altogether in 3 steps: eject error> only toc reading> no reading at all... 

At this point I don't know if it makes sense to attempt any  cleaning. :-(

I'm a bit shocked to be honest. To find a donor deck in Italy is like looking for gold... :-(

Moreover, 1 whole week learning "how to do", waiting for the belt from the UK and then this "lens surprise". :-(

[NGY]

19 minutes ago, Alex1980 said:

1 whole week learning "how to do", waiting for the belt from the UK and then this "lens surprise". :-(

I am getting the impression, that these decks with the MDM7 flavours are very sensitive. Lots of people are experiencing (sometimes serious) trouble after a simple belt replacement. Just scroll through this topic quickly ...

Anyhow, you can try to reset your deck before doing anything else. Locate the reset jumper, remove it for about 10...20 seconds (with the AC cord pulled out beforehand).

[Alex1980]

13 minutes ago, NGY said:

locate the reset jumper, remove it for about 10...20 seconds (with the AC cord pulled out beforehand).

Thanks. But geez, so hard to remove... 

[Alex1980]

Done 3 times. Nothing changed. 

What a hell is this story? Seriously the MDM-7 are sxit? 

[NGY]

I would not say that, those are very good drives. Just the main cpu-s of those models equipped with MDM7 variants seem being kinda ”picky”.

But your case is amongst the better ones, because your deck is at least "alive" after the belt replacement. Many people struggle with "stuck in standby", and that one is really a hard nut to crack.

Dozens of causes can result the C13 error. It needs a systematic approach, and take one step at a time to find the real one. We normally begin with the "trivial" things, like resetting the machine, reseating all the ribbon cables, cleaning the OP lens. Then we go deeper - and here where the need for some technical knowledge and experience as well as some special tools begins, otherwise one can ultimately ruin an otherwise good machine.

But again, your deck is not (yet) dead, and it might just be a small, easy to fix cause of that C13.

 

[Alex1980]

6 hours ago, NGY said:

I would not say that, those are very good drives. Just the main cpu-s of those models equipped with MDM7 variants seem being kinda ”picky”.

But your case is amongst the better ones, because your deck is at least "alive" after the belt replacement. Many people struggle with "stuck in standby", and that one is really a hard nut to crack.

Dozens of causes can result the C13 error. It needs a systematic approach, and take one step at a time to find the real one. We normally begin with the "trivial" things, like resetting the machine, reseating all the ribbon cables, cleaning the OP lens. Then we go deeper - and here where the need for some technical knowledge and experience as well as some special tools begins, otherwise one can ultimately ruin an otherwise good machine.

But again, your deck is not (yet) dead, and it might just be a small, easy to fix cause of that C13.

 

Thanks for your reply as well. Why "picky"? It's not a replacement, the MDM7 never left it's "home deck"... 

I had the same stand-by problem, but it's easy to fix: just "force" a little bit the arm (on my left) to eject, unplug the AC and then the machine turns on again. 

How do you reset the ribbons? I just tried with the jumper. And how can I get in the service mode? Just to check, at least the hours it was in use. 

Anyway, I guess after the op cleaning and and ribbons reset... I'm done... As I wrote on my first post here in Italy, people are incompetent about minidisc decks and I'm not willing to spend more than 50€ after I have spent a total of 63€ in: belts (I bought 2) 24€, 1L of isopropyl alcohol 16€ (couldn't find a smaller size) and the rest to the "technician" for checking the machine and the price quotation. 

I guess I'm at a dead end... 

[NGY]

2 hours ago, Alex1980 said:

Why "picky"? It's not a replacement, the MDM7 never left it's "home deck

I used the term "picky" meaning "hard to please". In other words, sensitive to smallest details [being in strict order].

2 hours ago, Alex1980 said:

I had the same stand-by problem, but it's easy to fix:

We all wish if it was just that much. Do take a quick look around that topic I linked above ....

2 hours ago, Alex1980 said:

How do you reset the ribbons?

I wrote reseat ... 

2 hours ago, Alex1980 said:

Anyway, I guess after the op cleaning and and ribbons reset... I'm done

...

I guess I'm at a dead end... 

You probably are, but not your deck, it is still far from it. But certainly, it is your choice.

This forum is meant mostly for amateurs, not pro service people. Some of us (similarly amateur folks) hang around here trying to help people fixing their precious MD gear, using the collective experience and knowledge documented here. In this particular case, there are still a few items that can be checked before turning the case down for good, even for a non-pro user. But again, if that's your decision, then who am I to force you to attempt reparing your device :-) .

 

[Alex1980]

18 minutes ago, NGY said:

I used the term "picky" meaning "hard to please". In other words, sensitive to smallest details [being in strict order].

We all wish if it was just that much. Do take look around that topic I linked above ....

I wrote reseat ... 

You probably are, but not your deck, it is still far from it. But certainly, it is your choice.

This forum is meant mostly for amateurs, not pro service people. Some of us (similarly amateur folks) hang around here trying to help people fixing their precious MD gear, using the collective experience and knowledge documented here. In this particular case, there are still a few items that can be checked before turning the case down for good, even for a non-pro user. But again, if that's your decision, then who am I to force you to attempt reparing your device :-) .

 

Picky: I thought you meant that the MDM7 "doesn't like" to be replaced. My bad. Haha. 

Reseat, sorry again. I thought it was simply a typo. 

I didn't mean that I wanna abandon the deck but that I'm not willing to spend much. I'll try over and over to fix it but with a limited budget. 

At last but not least I read the whole topic (thanks for the link). But in short, some people just revived their machines (like the je980 owner) randomly. Deasembled, then reassembled and for whatever reason it started to work. Others failed and at last from mid-page 3 it has become too technical for my knowledges about electronics...

Haaa, I'm so depressed right now (about the machine, of course. Haha). 

[Alex1980]

I maybe have found a deal/solution. Is it possible to replace a je780 optical unit into a je770?

[NGY]

1 hour ago, Alex1980 said:

I maybe have found a deal/solution. Is it possible to replace a je780 optical unit in the je770?

Short answer: yes, it is possible.

Long answer: I know my opinion is only one, and it does not count, nevertheless, here is what I think (no offense!):

It is not yet known, what caused your C13 error. First you said you knew that it was the spindle motor. Now you say it is the OP to replace. In between you said you are done with "reset and reseat". This way you certainly will not be able to find the real problem and the real solution, unless you are very lucky. As I wrote above: systematic approach is the name of the game. Replacing the OP is certainly on the list, but there are several others well before it.

You still want to replace the OP? I guess then you are aware of what it takes to perform such a delicate service process. But why do you want to begin with replacing the OP, without actually checking the existing OP first? 

There is a reasonably good level of technical expertise here on this very forum, when it comes to repairing MD gear. You can have some directions where to begin, good advices when and what to touch and what not, etc. As well, as what minimum knowledge/understanding and special tools required in a given case. Now: I don't know anything about your technical preparedness, this is why I am hesitant to take you any further. I don't want to be responsible for any damage to your valuable MD deck.

I am very sorry if I sound kinda negative. I hope somebody else with much better senses can jump in and help you through this repair.

 

[Alex1980]

Nonono! You ain't negative at all (at least to me) but straightforward and I love people like you coz I'm the same. Haha. 

To answer to your "perplexity" about my behavior... I just have got confused in the process (too many variables). About the reseat and reset... I thought that everytime i reseat the ribbon cable, the machines would reset, like with the jumper... I know, i got messy... 

The only reason why I prefer to replace it, rather than "revive" it it's cost/time related. The optical unit would cost me 38€ and 5 minutes of work. Trying to fix the original unit, only God knows how long it would take and how much it would cost me... 

If someone could help me out how to repair everything in short time and for less than 38€ I would be more than glad... But except you (and I thank you for that) nobody seems interested to give a hand. Sad reality... 

[kgallen]

I’ll give a hand: Follow NGYs advice very carefully. 

If you want other ideas then look back through this forum over the past few months. The forum has been very active with great MD people with machine issues that are not so dissimilar. Part of solving issues with machines is the owner needs to build up some knowledge about the machines themselves and the approach to take trying to diagnose the issues. Only one person is sitting in front of that machine and that is the owner. Those contributing on this forum are trying to diagnose issues remotely and are totally dependent on the knowledge and ability of the person sat in front of the hardware. 

If you can replace an OP in 5 minutes then your abilities are well beyond any of us here.

[Alex1980]

I said I can replace an optical unit in 5 minutes because it's freaking easy. Unscrew 4 screws, unplug the ribbon cables, change the unit, plug the new ribbon cables in, then put everything back in place (ground places as well) and you are good to go... 

Skills are needed to replace single small parts, not an entire optical unit. 

Did I miss anything??? 

 

[Alex1980]

Wait... Maybe you mean just the laser unit. Noooo. I found a complete unit. Mechanical and optical. 

[Alex1980]

[sfbp]

No such luck, Alex. The 770 is designed to work with the PS/2 keyboard style of remote control using something called PCLK-MN10 and software known as M-Crew. It predates the 780 which along with the 980 is designed to work with USB remote control (I don't mean the handheld remote). They are different models, and I don't think they are compatible (MDM-7 and MDM-7S1A for the USB/NetMD machine)

Sorry.

[kgallen]

OP = optical pickup (ie the laser sled assembly).

You replaced the whole drive. 
 

Knowing and using the correct terminology is very important otherwise we can be at cross purposes. At this end we’re working blind so it’s important we are talking about the same components. 

[M1JWR]

dont think i would go 770 either, 480 would be a better bet, even though that model is not net md, its from the same line up, just need to see if it has the s1a varient drive unit.

[sfbp]

I might be wrong about this. I finally got around to checking the pinouts, and they are identical. My conclusion: maybe it's worth a try swapping that one in. What do you think, Gyula and Kevin (I think you had some dealings with the special MDM-7 used under remote control with the E12)?

[kgallen]

51 minutes ago, sfbp said:

I might be wrong about this. I finally got around to checking the pinouts, and they are identical. My conclusion: maybe it's worth a try swapping that one in. What do you think, Gyula and Kevin (I think you had some dealings with the special MDM-7 used under remote control with the E12)?

If it's some variant of MDM-7 then it should match and probably work. My post on my E10 evening of swinging with a 480 and 440 drive is documented below if you have the time to read my drivel. If I remember correctly, one worked fine and the other sort of worked, so there could be some subtleties that mean only some variants are fully compatible with others. Then again I can't recall if they both worked flawlessly in their home machines (both 440 and 480 bought tatty for spares).

Agree with @M1JWR that a 480 should be relatively easy to come by on eBay and at a decent price... although we've been advocating such a move a few times around here recently, so the 480's are probably going up in price...

Kevin

 

 

[NGY]

3 hours ago, sfbp said:

I finally got around to checking the pinouts, and they are identical. My conclusion: maybe it's worth a try swapping that one in. What do you think, Gyula and Kevin (I think you had some dealings with the special MDM-7 used under remote control with the E12)?

I don't have any experience with swapping complete drives between an x70 and an x80 family deck. I have just sold my 470 some days ago, so cannot even try - I wish I could and give an exact answer.

I can only speak for the 330/520/720/920 vs 530/630/730/930 compatibility. Both families have MDM-5 drives, and both type BD boards have the exact same pinouts on all three cable connectors (although the switch board is not part of the BD board). Nevertheless, swapping drives between the two families did not work, and I tried quite a few combinations. I suspected it was due to the different DSP chip. This difference is certainly there between the x70 and x80 families too (being Type-R and Type-S respectively).

Therefore, if I was in Alex's shoes, I would be cautious before spending yet another 38 Euros on a 780 (or 480) drive for my 770, until somebody can firmly confirm that such a swap works. On the other hand, 38 € for a drive that has several important compatible parts (OP, OWH, sled, spindle motor, etc.) is not a bad deal.

 

 

[kgallen]

My bad, I'm reading the topic title that says 780 but we've moved over to a 770 mid-thread.

[NGY]

22 hours ago, Alex1980 said:

If someone could help me out how to repair everything in short time and for less than 38€ I would be more than glad...

You may want to read my post here. That's all I can add to the "how to". I put my best knowledge and all my experiences into that list, so it will probably give you an idea, how to progress with your repair. Apart from a spare OP or a spindle motor (whichever turns out to be the faulty one, if at all), there is not much cost involved for most of those checks. But you cannot avoid having (borrowing) the necessary tools.

Rest you can find here on this forum, and as Kevin put it very nicely, the success depends on you too, big time:

21 hours ago, kgallen said:

If you want other ideas then look back through this forum over the past few months. The forum has been very active with great MD people with machine issues that are not so dissimilar. Part of solving issues with machines is the owner needs to build up some knowledge about the machines themselves and the approach to take trying to diagnose the issues. Only one person is sitting in front of that machine and that is the owner. Those contributing on this forum are trying to diagnose issues remotely and are totally dependent on the knowledge and ability of the person sat in front of the hardware. 

 

[kgallen]

Alex. If it makes you feel any better, a year or so ago I knew nothing about the insides of a minidisc machine. I’m certainly no expert now and have nothing of the experience of people like @NGY. But through the help and advice of good people on this forum including @sfbp it’s possible to learn lots of the basics and where to look. If nothing else to learn ones own limits and the parts not to fiddle with! But it does come down the the owner learning and the history on this forum is a great place to do some of that. 
 

At this point I would usually say we’ll get your machine sorted one way or another but I’m not sure we’ve have the successes recently we hoped for!

Keep at it!