SonicStage 3.2, Initial Impressions

[ROMBUSTERS]

the fact remains Sony is phasing the legacy MD format out and replacing it with HiMD which does everything more or less the same as legacy MD but better.

Wishing they would change things now won't change anything and doesn't even make business sense at this point.

[tommypeters]

Ok...

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No, don't quote that out of context... Looks like I wasn't clear, but it won't be more clear if you leave out important stuff

I wrote:

"I can only find two plausible reasons for Sony not allowing this:

1) SonicStage is written so it would be major coding work to add the possibility to upload from a non-FAT formatted minidisc, which they're not going to do.

2) The original MD doesn't write info on how they were recorded, upload to PC were never thought of. SonicStage can't know if the tracks are "safe" to upload or digitally recorded. This would hurt their massive pre-recorded Minidisc sales..."

...which means these are not factual statements but merely guesswork.

I think Sony would have sold more NetMD players if SonicStage hadn't been such a rotten program and had so many restrictions. I think they now would sell some more Hi-MD players if they actually helped people move their stuff over from their original MD disks to new Hi-MD disks.

The reasons I can find for this (apart from stupidity, but that's always a plausible reason when Sony is involved) are the two listed. I don't know if it's hard to allow upload from an MD disk (new routine because of different disc format?) or if it's just to set "AllowLegacyUpload=True". And I don't know if any info about if the source was analog or not is saved on an original MD disk. I guess I used too few question marks...

So, does anyone have any information (or more guesses) on why legacy upload of analog recordings still isn't possible in SonicStage 3.2?????????????????

[PaulV]

the whole reason why mp3 has become so huge is that it is not drm`ed so people can upload and download and pass around as they want; and that is the key.

mp3 as a technology allows them to do this, it`s the technology that allows them to do what they previously could not.

had ogg have been there first, then ogg would have become the dominat standard ( which is should, it`s the best codec out there ) and mp3 would be in ogg`s place.

since mp3 is the dominat force sony was stupid to only allow atrac on it`s early players. even if some one WANTED to buy a sony device they would not as sony forced them to use a rubbish DRM locked format that actually treated them like a tagged crimnal ( only allowed out to certian places, not allowed to see certian people etc ).

now FINALLY we are getting to a place where some one who WANTS ( and i keep saying that as this is not a casual buyer i`m describing here, this is sone one who searches for a sony device to play music on ) to buy sony can use an mp3-like enabling technology to allow them to do what they want to.

hopefully now atrac will be come a force again and sony customers can buy a sony device knowing theya re getting something better or equal to the other devices out there.

[Prof.OND]

Is it possible to have a downloadable version of SS 3.2 without installer?

Download section?

[1kyle]

For those that are interested: I concur with Adrian (atrain) in regards to sound quality. The difference between 256kbps and 320kbps is not significant but noticeable. I tried Nina Simone's I Loves You, Porgy both at 256kbps and 320kbps. (using MDR-SA3000 via desktop audio out)

I can immediately discern a fuller sound overall; and there appears to be light boost in the upper midrange and treble. Please note that this listening test is subjective. A frequency analysis would definitely reveal any significant difference - any suggestion as to which software to employ for such a test?

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The problem with computer output stuff for listening is that the speakers, amps etc if anything are geared to DVD type sounds and is quite different from "Large Living Room" with 1000 USD speakers in it and top range Audio Amplifiers.

There definitely IS a difference between 256 and 320 kps -- I took my laptop down to my gear -- I'm using a decent Audigh Z2 PCMCIA sound card and plugged this in (Optical Out on the Audigy to an Optical In on the Amp).

Your Source has to be good --some CD's are of dubious quality anyway but a decent full price Classical Music CD with a large Dynamic range will definitely yield a difference in sound quality -- not significant but it's there.

Alos a lot of people tend to have the volume turned up much too high -- which again can cause clipping and hence distortion at whatever bit rate you are using.

In spite of all this I still find SP or even LP2 from the MDS-JB980 more than holds it's own.

I'd LOVE a quality top end Hi-MD deck built like the MDS-JB980. Now that WOULD show up any difference big time.

Trouble is probably 99% of people listening to music these days (excluding when travelling and using portable gear) are probably doing it through their computers.

Nothing wrong with that per-se but you won't get really ideal sound from this gear.

Cheers

-K

[greenmachine]

Decode and burn it to CD and you'll have access to higher quality audio equipment.

[Christopher]

Is it possible to have a downloadable version of SS 3.2 without installer?

Download section?

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We're working on it.

[Prof.OND]

Superb

[Latexxx]

I can only find two plausible reasons for Sony not allowing this:

1) SonicStage is written so it would be major coding work to add the possibility to upload from a non-FAT formatted minidisc, which they're not going to do.

2) The original MD doesn't write info on how they were recorded, upload to PC were never thought of. SonicStage can't know if the tracks are "safe" to upload or digitally recorded. This would hurt their massive pre-recorded Minidisc sales...

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The reason why Sony can't allow uploading standard md's is that no current md player supports feeding any kind of data, except toc, from the disk to pc. So it isn't possible to make Ss read the discs because the units can't upload the audio data.

[tommypeters]

OK, that's a good reason But what I asked was if it was possible to use a Hi-MD player to upload the data, but maybe their HW can't handle that either from a legacy MD?

[hobgoblin]

Believe it or not, recording through the soundcard is much easier than any USB system, USB tends to be confusing, most of the equipment needed to play or record needs drivers -- such as the ones you had to install when you purchased your NEDMD and installed Sonic Stage ... with analog recording all the drivers are built in into the Windows or MAC OS.

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and with a properly designed digital recorder the recorded audio would show up as wav files, or your prefered compressed format if the recorder can deal with it, so that all you have to do is access the usb storage media that pops up when you plug the player in and drag the files over.

no messing with recorder software on the computer or queing the player and similar.

basicly the perfect dap would not need a program like itunes or sonicstage to perform basic functions. they would instead enhance said functions when available by allowing you to set up playlists and similar and then transfer those to the player. and it would have cheap removable media that was fully rw (not this simulated rw that you have with dvd and cd rw media. you should have the ability to delete any file on the media and be able to use the new free space to store new files without having to "format" it every time).

the hi-md have so much promise in its basic design. but with all the drm paranoia that sony wraps it in it's getting strangled. im starting to wonder what kind of cost and limits sony puts on a technology licence as i would love to start a company, licence the hi-md tech and make a drm free player with the same capabilitys as a iriver or iaudio player.

if that dont have for a ipod "killer" nothing does

[fatalei]

I tried downloading the new version but can still not upload files from the MD device that I had recorded optically. Anyone been able to make this work?

[greenmachine]

You can upload, but you cannot convert - you'll need himdrenderer for this process.

[fatalei]

You can upload, but you cannot convert - you'll need himdrenderer for this process.

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I can't even upload. I actually get an error message that says, "unable to transfer to the computer".

[raintheory]

I tried downloading the new version but can still not upload files from the MD device that I had recorded optically.  Anyone been able to make this work?

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If you had uploaded the track to PC prior to upgrading to 3.2, then it won't work... The DRM info was already written to the HiMD at that point. Also, if you had attempted to upload and received some kind of error (again, prior to upgrading to 3.2), then there is the possibility that even though the track wasnt uploaded correctly, the DRM was still written to it...

Might be a silly question, but I didnt see anyone ask it yet... You state that "the MD device" ... is the unit HiMD? ...

[jadeclaw]

OK, that's a good reason But what I asked was if it was possible to use a Hi-MD player to upload the data, but maybe their HW can't handle that either from a legacy MD?

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Theoretically a HiMD-player could upload old MD-Recordings.

Sony has deliberately blocked this.

And the reason for that could be the existence of prerecorded discs.

[laplace]

Hi everyone,

It's been only ten days I'm learning from the start everything minidisc-related and my questions below probably already are answered elsewhere in this forum but I just want to be sure I'm not missing something.

I've installed SonicStage 3.2 yesterday (never used a previous version) and wasn't able to get things right.

a/ It doesn't allow me to play/convert/(restore rights on) oma files (hi-sp atrac3+ 256kbit/sec recording of an amateur live event from mic-in on a Hi-MD walkman) created by a friend with SonicStage 3.1 on his own computer (oma files were transferred by dvdr backup from his computer to mine).

As he was able to play these oma files and wasn't aware of the DRM limitations, he didn't create wav files or burn audio cds at this point because he was waiting for me to edit the record, he just kept a dvdr backup of these oma files, and reformatted the hi-md disc in order to record another live performance.

He then suffered malware infection on his computer and decided to install a ghost image of his Windows created months earlier. Now he isn't able to play/convert these oma files anymore.

--> Is there a way to restore rights on these oma files, or at least to play them on some hi-md unit or PC ?

b/ It doesn't allow me to play/import/convert/(restore rights on) old LP2 tracks through USB that were recorded two years ago on some MDLP walkman from mic-in.

We still have these minidiscs unmodified so I'm currently looking for some (new or used) MDLP fullsize deck with digital out in order to be able to edit a digital copy on PC. Such a pity there's currently no (walkman or deck) Hi-MD with digital out available.

--> Is there a way to get a digital copy of these LP2 minidiscs on PC using my Sony MZ-RH910 Hi-MD walkman and not getting me into buying an old-technology unit ?

Thanks

[Andy]

Theoretically a HiMD-player could upload old MD-Recordings.

Sony has deliberately blocked this.

And the reason for that could be the existence of prerecorded discs.

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I think it might just be that they don't have a nice distributable codec for ATRAC that they can release. Sure, it is lazy of them, but I don't think they have 'blocked' it - it would require a fair bit of work to do.

[PaulV]

does the little sony flash memory players support the new bit rates?

[MDfreak]

Theoretically a HiMD-player could upload old MD-Recordings.

Sony has deliberately blocked this.

And the reason for that could be the existence of prerecorded discs.

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I asked Sony NL and the reason why uploading isn't possible (for old recordings) is that on the old discs there is no DRM so there is no possibility to verify how recordings were made and what the rights are. Now with SS 3.2 now they only make a difference between optical/analog (and no upload-counter) I would say the SCMS on the old discs would be enough protection to allow uploading so who knows what happens with 3th generation Hi-MD's.

[indeego]

I would say the SCMS on the old discs would be enough protection to allow uploading so who knows what happens with 3th generation Hi-MD's.

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right, and the unit recognizes a prerecorded disc (remember the P/B only message while trying to edit the disc)

I am really excited what 3. gen units will bring to us

Should be better than "Ipod flea"

btw: a DRM-free oma-file, created with sonicStage 3.2, can be played with SonicStage 3.1, nut no transfers are allowed nor is any conversion possible.

[ROMBUSTERS]

but a drm-free oma file created with sonicStage 3.2 can be played on any PC with sonicstage 3.2 and allows transfers?

[indeego]

yes, I can confirm this.

[gman_g]

Is SonicStage 3.2 officialy released from Sony? I went to their website and there is no mention of 3.2. Is this a beta release that's been tested? Also, Is this safe to use on the US verion of the software? I saw the images had Japanese charaters in the screen display.

Thanks

[Ishiyoshi]

Is SonicStage 3.2 officialy released from Sony?  I went to their website and there is no mention of 3.2.  Is this a beta release that's been tested?  Also, Is this safe to use on the US verion of the software?  I saw the images had Japanese charaters in the screen display.

Thanks

←

You can download the English version of SonicStage 3.2 in the download section of the forum. It works perfectly well and comes with Europe Connect; and if you should need to utilize US Connect please edit the registry entry as follow:

locate: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Sony Corporation\SonicStage\EMD

and change the HomeURL to http://musicstore.connect.com/

[ROMBUSTERS]

when will Sony officially be releasing SonicStage 3.2 via connect.com?

[PaulV]

do the flash players accept the new bit rates?

[PaulV]

what sonic stage really needs now is the ability to read ape/Flac files.

with all these formats we have at the moment i am finding my self storing a cd in wav format then doing a fresh conversion each time, as opposed to keep 4 copies of the cd at different bitrates each time.

we will not have flac support on the MD as it will be to difficult to porccess for the `simple` atrac chips, but sonic stage needs the option to store files in loss less encoding.

[laplace]

Anyone ideas/responses for post #177 ? Thanks.

[Roamer]

Read #161 and #180.

I have over 100 legacy MDs with personal recording, and i no longer expect Sony to provide us with USB uploading for those. So i convert them analog, and all new recordings are with HiMD.

Edited July 31, 2005 by Roamer

[The Low Volta]

--> Is there a way to restore rights on these oma files, or at least to play them on some hi-md unit or PC ?

I'm very sorry but nope... pre-3.2 oma's are DRM'ed and will not be playable on other PC's than the original... only possibility I see is to play 'em through SS and capture them digitally with TotalRecorder (MDCF should get a commision from these guys! it is recommended so often ) and if playback through SS isn't possible there's only the analogue way left

--> Is there a way to get a digital copy of these LP2 minidiscs on PC using my Sony MZ-RH910 Hi-MD walkman and not getting me into buying an old-technology unit ?

I'm sorry but how would you see this happening as the RH910 hasn't got an optical out and you know usb won't work? eiher you do invest in a MD-deck with optical out, or you mod one (search around on these forums... there are tips for doing this) or you just accept the limitations because at the time you (or someone else) recorded these discs, there was no possibility to upload digitally whatsoever (except for the optical-out method which still works) so you haven't lost any features...you just haven't gained any either! just use the analogue realtime way (which isn't that bad!)

sorry if this sounds harsh...I definitely do not intend to insult or redicule you, but I'm slightly getting tired of all these "I'm bummed 'cause I can't upload my old recordings posts... sony should make this possible but they won't, so they are inconsiderate turds or something less civilized..."

technologies evolve...live with it, when you recorded the shows, you expected them to be ulpoaded analoguely in realtime and you were happy with it... now, just because HiMD popped up, you expect Sony to allow digital uploading of legacy discs. That would be something like saying, hey they invented CDR, now they should make my old audio-cassettes sounds as good! (just face the facts, MD and HiMD are different)

I would like to hear a bit more positive sounds on SS3.2 personally. We said: "if only they would ease up on the DRM and one-time only uploading then the software would be acceptable and HiMD could realize it's full potential"... SS3.2 brought us un-DRM'ed oma files (for the first time ever) and allows unlimited uploads and what do we hear? "we still can't do this and that and so and so..."

I was born and raised an ideological semi-communist, but there's one thing I got to say that speaks for the liberal market mechanism... if you do not like something, just don't buy it but do not blame the manufacturers for not delivering stuff they did not (ever) promise...

I'm very sorry for this rant, but I've seen so much of my wishes granted with this release of SS3.2... I'm just venturing into recording thanks to greenmachine (who has sent me some brilliant homemade mics just check out this brillliant thread) and I think it's a real boon for HiMD that uploading went 'unlimited' even though with the right knowledge, uploading was safe even before 3.2 (heck, I've uploaded all my masters thesis interviews without any worries and those really were crucial) just follow these instructions (even with SS3.) and nothing disastrous will happen and you'll be enjoying your recordings for many years to come...

PS: I promise to ease up a bit in my next post, but this has been my first (decent/long) post in a long time, while I have still been reading all these whining posts and it just got the better of me

[laplace]

Thanks.

About question a/ : playback isn't possible on SS (mine nor my friends' since he reformatted hard disk) and I don't understand what's this 'analogue way' you're talking about -- these oma files are on hard disk only and don't play anywhere.

About b/ question I've just ordered a Sony MDS-JB980 with optical digital out and will be capturing real-time with pro equipment.

I'm using computer hardware for digital audio recording since a few years; previously I've used DAT for more than 15 years, and various Denon digital recording equipment when I was young. Please note I never got in touch with lossy compression. Sure these formats were (semi-) professional market- oriented but I never had problems making perfect translations and wouldn't have tolerated it. I agree with some of your views but keep in mind that cdr writers are affordable (< USD 500) since 1997 with no copy protection for audio cds (and look at current prices... cdrw writer $35; cdr media $0.20), so I find it quite strange to still have to live with these MD and Hi-MD restrictions.

MD and Hi-MD, different formats, yes but you put them in the same place in a Hi-MD walkman, codecs are closely related, so at least I guess some people are allowed to ask why compatibility isn't 100%.

Honestly, does Sony think we would use MD or Hi-MD to steal copyrighted stuff, while we all have one if not several cd/dvd writers ? Doing it realtime, two units connected by optical cable, and two power transformers ? Maybe Batman & Robin's disguises too...

I've discovered MD world a few days ago and I'm still fighting to believe Sony has this attitude; MD users mostly are amateur musicians, singers or music fans that would never get into piracy.

[The Low Volta]

these oma files are on hard disk only and don't play anywhere.

ah, on the edge of being overly off-topic, I will try to answer this one... I actually misread that first bit... if everything is erased except for the homeless oma's...you're really out off luck, as I do not know any way to recover them at all

I've just ordered a Sony MDS-JB980 with optical digital out and will be capturing real-time with pro equipment.

very good choice if you care about your old material

MD and Hi-MD, different formats, yes but you put them in the same place in a Hi-MD walkman, codecs are closely related, so at least I guess some people are allowed to ask why compatibility isn't 100%.

'some' yeah, but the whining has been going on and on...and your point about CDR: still everyone had to make the switch and you couldn't upload any cassettes using a cheap CD-writer... so if ppl would switch to HiMD (a RH910 isn't that expensive ) and wouldn't expect to be able to upload their old recordings there would be no problem (you are actually just blaming Sony that they made their new technology look like and be partly compatible with the old stuff...a plus I would say, if only CD-players could have taken cassettes without quality loss)

...and as I said, logics about piracy or not, the recordings were made in a time where digital uploads were not expected, so do not expect them now or just be prepared to invest (in a deck with optical out) just as you would have had to before...and make sure you are informed before you spend money, cause Sony never promised HiMD would be able to upload MD recordings

but I think this has gone off topic far enough...if you would like to continue this discussion, just PM me and MOD's, feel free to remove the previous posts

[samplehunter]

I guess both these bitrates are high enough to be transparent to most users. At least it'll be very tough to compare. Who can successfully abx wav and hi-sp anyway?

It depends on the signal (and if you encode it in your unit or with the pc i think)

when i got my nh900 i wanted to test all possible codecs, so I've downloaded these EBU Test-Signals somewhere linked at minidisc.org .

These EBU Tests are instrument and speech samples with which you can test a codec e.g. as a developer.

The speech sample sounded VERY different to the original in Hi-SP with the PC. It sound somewhat grainy or so. It even sounded better in Hi-LP. the heaviest thing seems to be the Harpsichord sample. It was clearly different from the source with all codecs (Hi-SP/LP, LP2, LP4) i've tested.

But on the other side I recorded a Concert via Line-In in Hi-SP and this recording had an excellent quality.

But these test signals were carefully sorted to stress a lossy audio codec as much as possible and the Hi-SP encoding in the unit seems a bit better than the codec on the pc.

[samplehunter]

...

Also, it seems as if Sony has answered our prayers in regards to uploads of Live Recordings! In the past, it was required that you can only upload a self-recorded track (from an analog/optical source) once and then Sonicstage would disallow you to transfer it further. With Sonicstage 3.2, users may enjoy unlimited uploads of tracks with no restrictions whatsoever.

...

Hmm, could it be the reason, that Sony Music was bought by BMG ?

Or is it the new Sony Boss?

They seem to cancel more and more of their silly restrictions.

at last they will release firmware upgrades for the first gen Hi-MDs

[joemango]

So can anyone tell me why, with SCMS intact, Sony has stopped selling decks with S/PDIF digital out in the US? I can get one from Europe or Japan, but I have to pay through the nose for a simple feature. All I want to do is transfer a bunch (like 200 discs worth) of old SP and LP2 recordings digitally into my PC for editing and mastering. These are my own recordings, legally made, some were recorded with the digital in, some analog.

All I want to avoid is the analog output of my MZR-700. I used (mostly) an outboard preamplifier A/D converter to get the cleanest sound I could afford INTO my MD, and I have had to suffer the analog out on my deck! I have no recourse but to spend $500 or more on a format I won't ever record on again! I've graduated to 24-track 24bit/96KHz or HD 2-track for most of my live stuff nowadays.

Go ahead, tell me that "uploading" to my PC via analog in is acceptable. It isn't. I have to watch levels and make sure my input doesn't clip (go over 0dB for you laymen) and either way I'm introducing two new sources of signal degradation into the mix: the analog MD headphone output D/A and the Input A/D on my soundcard. This, in a word, SUCKS. Digital recording should be digital, regardless of compression.

SOMEONE SELL ME AN MXD-D400!!! PLEASE!!!!!

(Reply to joemango AT adelphia.net if you have one to sell)

Edited August 1, 2005 by joemango

[samplehunter]

Some annoying changes were done in SS 3.2

I have no option to delete only the oma converted file anymore!

I had SS 2.2 before and used to import wav or mp3 files into an album and converted it at a bunch and then transferred it to my nh900. After that I deleted this .oma-crap from the pc. don't want to store everything twice. I marked the entries in the album and pressed delete which brought up a nice menu where you could choose to delete the entries only or to delete also the pysical files. If you checked "delete files from disk" you had the choice to delete converted files (omg/oma) or to delete the original file too.

With SS 3.2 you have only the choice to remove only the title from database or to delete "the file". As we all know, sony has much fun in deleting something and therefore "the file" means ALL versions of the file including the original. Is there any way to change this behaviour to the old style? I want to delete the converted files after transferring because i have no use for them but logically I want to behold my original files.

The second thing which is quite annoying is this sound which is played after a transfer and there seems to be no option in the preferences to turn it off.

[streaml1ne]

With SS 3.2 you have only the choice to remove only the title from database or to delete "the file". As we all know, sony has much fun in deleting something and therefore "the file" means ALL versions of the file including the original. Is there any way to change this behaviour to the old style? I want to delete the converted files after transferring because i have no use for them but logically I want to behold my original files.

←

It's inefficient, but I make copies of whatever files I'm going to put on minidisc then import those.

[MAVickers]

With SS 3.2 you have only the choice to remove only the title from database or to delete "the file". As we all know, sony has much fun in deleting something and therefore "the file" means ALL versions of the file including the original. Is there any way to change this behaviour to the old style? I want to delete the converted files after transferring because i have no use for them but logically I want to behold my original files.

←

Have you tried this?

Michael

[samplehunter]

Theoretically a HiMD-player could upload old MD-Recordings.

Sony has deliberately blocked this.

And the reason for that could be the existence of prerecorded discs.

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... which is quite silly because the same content on a CD could be easily transferred.

another problem is that there is no legacy atrac codec on the pc. I think sony has never written a software codec for this.

there was a modificated MDH-10 data drive which was able to grab and to put atrac data on a md but it cost about $10000 (the mod with the software). It was meant for rather professional use...