Hi-MD, Bye-MD?

[Hennell]

Damn, this makes so much sense, but Hi-MD is so cool it doesn't deserve to die.

i use my Mini-Disc (MZ-NH700) to record radio shows from the radio, a HD just wouldnt work, i'd run out of space and suffer from no organisation. The number of people I know who see my unit and say "whats that" - "is it just an mp3 player?" etc is just scary. All these people have herd/have an i-Pod, yet know nothing about mini-disc.

If Sony were to have advertised "unlimited storage" music player, usb storage device and shown the mic recording stuff, this could really have taken off. instead its left for you to hear of, no wonder its facing destruction.

Hi-MD - things could have gone so well.

[lewpei]

I am on the wrong side of 60, am a diabetic, have had open heart surgery, and a few more ailments I will not mention here and I love MINI DISC.

I have a couple of MD recorders and a little over 300 MD's half recorded and half blank. I plan to buy a couple more players and more blank MD's to prepare for the future as I still plan to be around for a few more years to enjoy my music.

No doubt "SONY" sucks if they really do drop the MD line but cassettes have been gone longer than we care to admit and they are still available.

"WTF" I will have the use of MD's as long as I will need it but am concerned about some of you young whipper snappers.

Take care all and regardless what "SONY" does prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

I am gearing up to record as many native PEI musicians as I can than when I am gone if it works out to be a worthwhile project I will leave them to our provincial library if they have any use for them.

Must get started as if I am not over the hill I can see the top of it from where I am.

Good luck to all you MD'ers and hopefully to a long and happy future filled with lots of new MD's.

[motaboy]

Last minute resort:

In a few weeks when this thead is large enough - evey single forum user sends it to every single email listed on any Sony site.

[theblueraja]

Unbelievable.....after taking advice from this forum, I have ordered a rh10...it's going to be shipped any day now!!!!!

Do I cancel?

Do I turn to the dark side?

I cannot believe I decided to go with HIMD, and days later Sony may well be dropping it!

This has really annoyed me!

Just contact the store you ordered it from and give them MY shipping address. I'd love a 2nd unit

But seriously, and I believe I mentioned this in the T-board forum, you'll never buy the perfect electronic gizmo that will last over 10 years, even 5 sometimes, so use what's good NOW. Sony hiMD is the BEST now, in my opinion.

[feralchimp]

Although this isn't good news for people who need parts for their current / past generations of Sony MD hardware, this could be good news for the format overall. Due to various awful product design choices brought on by Sony Music's perceived conflict of interest, MD never really lived up to its potential. If someone else licenses Hi-MD (or even UMD?), they'll be much more likely to build products free of DRM, with generic USB storage device support, etc.

[NuPwrSoul]

Ahh this sucks!

I am like on my 5th MD player, using it primarily for field recordings and interviews for research. There just is nothing that compares in terms of portability, sound quality, and battery life.

And with the latest generation--ability to upload PCM recordings as WAV files--the MD is perfect. There are few digital music players/recorders that can compete with that.

It would be great if they just continued the MD for specialized consumer market, very much like DAT recorders. Without all the DRM crap though--that SonicStage thing was an absolute MESS.

[markrags]

Japanese companies are notorius for their detailed staff and department meetings, especially Sony. I have heard that the companies meetings last for days on things such as what gauge wire to employ within circutry. In my opinion this has resulted in some of the most amazing small and reliable electronic products ever made. It might be this cultural trait that has lost an important aspect of commercial product development, and that is will people be able to use it easily and comfortably. Sonic Stage is a perfect example of this oversight, and I can't think of any other Sony developed software that stands out as user friendly.

I think the HiMD is currently the most original and best thing they are currently doing. I just wish they would have tapered it off a little more and developed products that ran along side it, although they are probably right in the long run to be switching gears to a more etheral product line. Pervasive WIFI and streaming high fidelity audio are not that far off and we will see independent music and video production take a bite right out of Rupert Murdoch's a$$hole as well as Sony's record division.

Best,

Mark R.

gnmark@gmail.com

Edited October 3, 2005 by markrags

[Julius]

What can I say? We are living in a world where sales and marketing specialists play their own game, changing the rules according to their up-to-date point of view.

SONY have spent a lot of money into MD technology investigation, and now seem to give it all up considering MD not to be profitable today.

Take a look at any consumer electronics forum - you will see how many people are disappointed with the marketing policy of well-known manufacturers. Do they take care of interests of the customers? I don't think so.

[The Low Volta]

In a few weeks when this thead is large enough - evey single forum user sends it to every single email listed on any Sony site.

sorry to stop you in your tracks... but that is exactly what we shouldn't do! If that would cause anything to happen, it will more likely cause a sigh of relief at Sony's HQ that they finally got rid of a bunch of speculating/overactive/annoying MD-users than them stopping 1sec to think about keeping MD alive...

if Sony comes out with this announcement (it still hasn't you know) it means it that quite some internal meetings/discussions etc. have been held to come to that decision... some email spam won't change their mind, it will only shut even more doors for consumer feedback!

just try to be a bit reasonable:

• lots of ppl still have some equipment and for the others there will be quite some for sale on the net for a couple of years to come (and media just as well) so we can still record for quite some time
• it's not as much the question whether they kill the format or not (in the end, almost all formats are limited in time... 128MB MP3-players are even more outdated than MD and I still know ppl who can't afford to upgrade from that) but what other recording/portable AP -options there will be? For listening on the move, a lot of manufacturers are designing and selling alternatives already, but for cheap, portable and still high quality digital recording there are practically none (not counting the M-audio overpriced and not better than MD, even though it offers higher bitrate and stuff-thingy)

so let's not spam them with stuff they won't look at...just cause we're angry... let's think constructively!

• just post what you use MD for in this thread as some sort of petition showing there is a substantial semi-pro recording market out there
• let's invite (you know the polite way when you ask someone in stead of forcing him/her) Sony ppl to study this forums for ideas/opinions etc (like the what would you like to see in the 3rd gen HiMD models-thread which could become a 'what would you like to see in the HiMD-replacing alternative'-thread)... if they got to know their (potential) consumers of future products, Sony could perhaps score again with something new & improved (and DRM/proprietary format-less )

please ppl, do not morn MD cause you do not like change...morn the loss of some excellent features that at this moment no other device can replace

just my humble opinion

[funkymnky]

Noooooooo! Damnit. Doclloyd is right, Sony should have advertised! How many more people would have gone Hi-MD vs. iPod if people knew that they could record with it. I guess if we get a new product with similar functionality it'll be OK if minidisc is dropped, right? Regardless, I won't be unloading my Hi-MD stuff right away.

This is the biggest thing for sony. I agree as well, you can't walk down the street in Toronto without seein about one in four people with Ipod phones and those little pieces of shit attached to their belts.

Why? Because of an agressive marketing campaign that made them just "cool" to have. Everywhere you look are single bright colors with some form of "Hip cool kid" that everyone wants to be like and conform with. I don't think that the MD user is that type of person but why not cater to those who use it for personal recordings.

I still come across people 15 years after the technology of an MD was available to the public, and they haven't seen or heard of a minidisc. This is rediculous, how something so great has slipped under the radar. I have recorded almost every show that I play live, and tried many different units. It was Sony from the beginning, who issued a $1200 product that no one wanted to buy. (First giant portable MD) Then within a few years, you could purchase a sharp MD-MS722 for half the price with more features and a sweet backlit remote. Even now when purchasing the second from the top MZRH900 they don't give you a remote. BAD IDEA. Lucky for me I Have two MZR-909's with great remotes that you can't get in north america.

Ever since day one, the only people I knew who were enthusiastic about Minidisc were musicians. People who wanted to record live music, and tapes just didn't cut it. Easy access digital sound, and removable media are definitely something that users want. It's not all about the computer appz like sonicstage being blamed for the demise. Take a look at Itunes. PEople love that shit too, people who don't even have a Ipod, or an apple rock that shit. Once again all about marketing. Now with all of the podcast hype, sony is definitly on the chopping block infront of the guillotine.

But seriously when it comes to scrapping lines. Why not the Aibo? I mean come on, if you don't want to pick up dogshit, and feed an organic being, then you don't need a dog. $5000 price tag? more bad ideas, they need to talk to some of the users and develop a product with them in mind. Then minimize the line, one player non recorder for computer geeks, and one sweetass pimped out recording mic in unit with backlight on the unit and a sweet remote, and the ability to send microphone recordings direct to computer.

That would eliminate many models, but why do we need so many, the sports idea has been dead since the two jacked walkman of the late 80's.

Come on boys lets get out of here, before the ipodders trample us.

[theblueraja]

sorry to stop you in your tracks... but that is exactly what we shouldn't do! If that would cause anything to happen, it will more likely cause a sigh of relief at Sony's HQ that they finally got rid of a bunch of speculating/overactive/annoying MD-users than them stopping 1sec to think about keeping MD alive...

I agree w/ everything you just posted... especially the quote above.

[lamewing]

Hey Volta,

I have seen this comment from others as well and I don't understand the logic at all. Okay, if Sony is considering dropping MD, you say we shouldn't contact them and let them know that there are so many folks who use the format. How is not contacting them going provide them with our feelings and need regarding MD? Also, it makes no sense to think that Sony, after getting hundreads of emails (or many, many more) would then decide to cancel the product. Why would a company make a decision to cancel a product after folks show their support for it? Maybe the money just isn't there in MD, I can understand that, but to say that Sony will more likely cancel the product lines because we write in seems rather...silly. Having said that I don't think that rude emails are the answer, but how is just posting here regarding what we want and use it for going to make a difference? It would seem to make better sense to collect that information and send it directly to Sony. It is obvious that Kurisu has connections to Sony. Maybe other folks do as well. But, it seems folks would rather just wait for Sony to cancel the product line and just live with it versus at least contacting them regarding the issue. I seriously doubt that just posting here will do much. Of course the email may not make a difference either, but at least we can say we tried versus just lying down to die.

If Sony does decide to drop MD I through with Sony. Not because of the end of MD specificially, but it will be a final straw regarding all the mistakes they have made regarding digital music. If other companies can do drag and drop, the Sony can (and better still) as well. They just choose not to. It is pretty obvious that DAPs (even drag and drop) are a significant source of piracy of digital content. Any old hard drive can do that just as a HiMD used as a data drive can be. It confuses me even more when Sony even advertises the idea of sharing MDs!!!!

Sony also burnt me on the PS2 hard drive. $100.00 wasted on a product that wasn't supporeted except for one game. Now hear me out...the reason I am angry abou this is because in Japan, the HD could at least be used for music, digital pictures, etc. We, those not in Japan, were left in the cold. This can also be seen in the limitations of software and hardware for MD oustide of Japan; lesser remotes, no remotes, no charging stands, no Kanji support, fewer colors, etc. Sony's arrogance has put them in a bind and now they are paying the price.

In the end, I will use my Cowon X5L and also pick up some more Sharp Auvi players and/or recorders. I really hate to see Sony fail us MDers, but there is a bigger picture too...Sony has fallen to its own hubris and may never recover, especially if they continue to make bone-head decisons. Cutting jobs isn't always the best solution to a financial problem. I find it interesting that these large companies will bring someone in (Stringer maybe?), pay them millions and expect them to come up with a magic formula. Yet in Sony's case, we were given the solution of cutting jobs and products. YET at the same time (!!!!) Sony is creating UMD movies, another new proprietary memory card format, and a new series of mp3/atrac players that are butt-ugly, will eaisly scratch and attract fingerprints, even though they just released the NW-HD5 a few months ago (and now Sony stops using removeable batteries after just implementing them in the HD5!). Here are examples of the same bad decisions and confusion that Sony is famous for...but they are sure to do better. More products or less products, it doesn't matter. If the decsion makers still make bad calls, nothing will change...except they will find something new to blame the problems on.

You can see I am very upset about this. Why? Because this is SONY! I grew up with nothing but Sony equipment in my home. In my view, SONY was always some of the best consumer (and pro) equipment around. Until about 5 years ago, everything in my home was SONY as well. But,with their slide into oblivion, my wife and I have chosen non SONY replacments when we go shopping. I wish SONY the best of luck, but I don't see anything but stupidity and greed continuting to destroy the once great company.

Edited October 3, 2005 by lamewing

[billbowlus]

I have been using MD in live theatre for quite a while now. If it is wrtten off that will mean that we will have to spend a bunch of money for software and then the learning curve, just to do what I now do on an inexpensive Minidisc unit. Jerks

bill

[jadeclaw]

Volta,

I have seen this comment from others as well and I don't understand the logic at all.

But I do. First, there is no official statement yet. We should atleast await that.

Second, what is very important, is HOW that contact is made.

Steaming off isn't helping anything. Instead it would reinforce a decision to drop the format.

Plus, we should also see, if Sony offers an alternative, one that might even offers a higher usability/performance/value than MD.

Another thing: Some posts here have a disturbing tone.

To be frank, I don't like reading things like 'Sony can go to hell'.

I strongly suggest, that anyone here cools down and reread the message before clicking on 'Add Reply'.

It isn't that hard to stay civilized, isn't it?

[lecram1971]

I agree with the no Spam politic. Contact them and try to convince them there is a big market there is a good argument, but to attack them with Spam only will make to close the contact ways.

About the end of the format, if it is true, I think there is no other way if thing donñt change

1) How many people really use it for record than for playback, I think they are very few. Most people use it as a player, so the MD won´t compete with an Ipod (or similar) if it can´t have more sapce. People who buy an Ipod want´s to carry all the music in one thing, not changing disks.

2) People wants MP3 player, not Atrac3 Players, even the 2nd Generation that can play MP3 directly have the ghost of the Conversion to Atrac. I know, and for me I Atrac3 is better, gapless, etc, but people don´t want this.

3) Atrac3 close format, Like Betamax some years ago.

I don´t like to admit it, but I think MD don´t have a future, even it´s an excelent player and recorder.

[kpayson]

SHOULD I OPEN MY NEW MZM100?

My new MZM100 is being delivered today.

Should I open the box or send it back and get a Microtrack?

This is sad - I've been on MD since I bought the very last R50 on the store shelves

ps it still works great, but I need HiMD for recording.

[jadeclaw]

SHOULD I OPEN MY NEW MZM100?

My new MZM100 is being delivered today.

Should I open the box or send it back and get a Microtrack?

You should open the box and use it.

First, it works for a few years.

Second, Sony is known to supply media for a long time, sometimes for more that 30 years. ( U-Matic anyone? )

Third, have you read M-Audio's Battery Replacement Policy?

In short, if the LiIon-Battery is dead, you have to send the Microtrack back and pay 75 bucks.

Remember the iPod-battery debacle. That alone puts me off.

So, be happy with your M100 and forget the Microtrack rather quickly.

On a sidenote, noone can assure you, that CF-Cards don't become unavailable.

Heck, it is already nearly impossible to get anything smaller than 128MB - except eBay.

Problem: My digicam cannot handle more than 128MB, so this becomes a problem for me.

[silence]

if Sony comes out with this announcement (it still hasn't you know) it means it that quite some internal meetings/discussions etc. have been held to come to that decision... some email spam won't change their mind, it will only shut even more doors for consumer feedback!

I feel your pain Volta BTW: this stage is called denial

just try to be a bit reasonable:

• lots of ppl still have some equipment and for the others there will be quite some for sale on the net for a couple of years to come (and media just as well) so we can still record for quite some time
• it's not as much the question whether they kill the format or not (in the end, almost all formats are limited in time... 128MB MP3-players are even more outdated than MD and I still know ppl who can't afford to upgrade from that) but what other recording/portable AP -options there will be? For listening on the move, a lot of manufacturers are designing and selling alternatives already, but for cheap, portable and still high quality digital recording there are practically none (not counting the M-audio overpriced and not better than MD, even though it offers higher bitrate and stuff-thingy)

so let's not spam them with stuff they won't look at...just cause we're angry... let's think constructively!

• just post what you use MD for in this thread as some sort of petition showing there is a substantial semi-pro recording market out there
• let's invite (you know the polite way when you ask someone in stead of forcing him/her) Sony ppl to study this forums for ideas/opinions etc (like the what would you like to see in the 3rd gen HiMD models-thread which could become a 'what would you like to see in the HiMD-replacing alternative'-thread)... if they got to know their (potential) consumers of future products, Sony could perhaps score again with something new & improved (and DRM/proprietary format-less )

  Any spinning disc thingy (your word) is outdated technolgy. Yes in the past we have kept inovations alive -ie the cassette but they were mechanical in nature and could be easely fixed. nobody is set up to repair products the like of the MD- FYI a solid state device with specs higher than the HI-MD, with phantom power, and drag and drop, PCM recording for $325 is not overpriced - is called a bargain.

please ppl, do not morn MD cause you do not like change...morn the loss of some excellent features that at this moment no other device can replace

I do like your voice of reason attitude Volta, I just hope I'm in the right forum this time.

My 2 cents

just my humble opinion

[bland10000]

wow, 30,000 viws on this thread...

[lamewing]

But I do. First, there is no official statement yet. We should atleast await that.

Second, what is very important, is HOW that contact is made.

Steaming off isn't helping anything. Instead it would reinforce a decision to drop the format.

Plus, we should also see, if Sony offers an alternative, one that might even offers a higher usability/performance/value than MD.

Another thing: Some posts here have a disturbing tone.

To be frank, I don't like reading things like 'Sony can go to hell'.

I strongly suggest, that anyone here cools down and reread the message before clicking on 'Add Reply'.

It isn't that hard to stay civilized, isn't it?

I BELIEVE I did mention that we shouldn't just send angry emails. I don't think that waiting until the announcemnt is made makes much sense. By that time it is too late. Sure, make the contact as polite as possible and to the correct people, but sending it now isn't going to force Sony do drop MD any more so than before we contact them. That smacks of sandbox politics..."Oh, I don't like the way to talk to me so I am taking my shovel and leaving." ... and while I believe Sony is seriously confused, I really hope that they would fall prey to such thinking.

While is may seem disturbing to you (do you have a soft hide or something), you might want to look at the deeper reason behind such posts. These are PEOPLE who have trusted Sony to provide them with a tool, a tool that they have put much trust into. If Sony drops MD, they are going to feel hurt. Why? Because it comes down to human nature....you take someone's trust and break it...of course they are going to get emotional. Also factor in the lack of information to the MDers from Sony. You would think that they would have a liason with this forum. Instead, we MDers are being presented with the ugly reality of the situation...it is a cold-hearted business decision and we, as people, don't matter to Sony..at all. The only time we even show up on their radar is when we give them revenue or when we take our hard earned money elsewhere.

Edited October 3, 2005 by lamewing

[The Low Volta]

you say we shouldn't contact them and let them know that there are so many folks who use the format.

have you even read my post?...I never said we shouldn't contact them... I've even started a thread assembling user-experiences so we can send Sony a clear view of a bunch of ppl that like MD's features...but the post I reacted on spoke of semi-spamming every available Sony-emailaddress with this top-heavy borderline-ranting, overemotional and still based on speculation (sorry silence, that's not denial, I really think it's MD's end, but it's a fact that there has been no official announcement yet and the scope of the killoff isn't clear yet) thread and I do really believe that would kill all of MDCF's credebility with Sony... and yes, we have some... not only through kurisu's connections (which I do not want to abuse to vent my anger...if I had any) but also in the suggestions and user opinions spread out on the many pages here... or is it pure coincidence that there were that many pleas for unlimited uploading, MP3 support, un-DRM'ed ripping,... and then all of a sudden they were implemented? just think constructively! But if you want to change Sony's mind by sending them this thread in which you (and many others) are saying you will not buy any more Sony stuff as the managers leading the company can only take stupid decisions? good luck

I BELIEVE I did mention that we shouldn't just send angry emails.

we should send a polite invitation to read our forums and the petition (mentioned in my previous thread) and to start a dialogue with the semi-pro and amateur recording market (i.e. most of us) to work on an alternative (or to keep and improve some semi-pro HiMD models or something) as there is a big void in the available tools when it comes to portable recording

While is may seem disturbing to you (do you have a soft hide or something), you might want to look at the deeper reason behind such posts.

but please, if you are angry at Sony, do not disrespect/insult other members

and I do understand irate emotional reactions...but admit that that is all they are...take a deep breath and ... think rationally and calmly about what could/should be done... I have been angry at my neighbour as he 'stole' all the broadband bandwidth with porn-downloads and stuff but do you think that it would have been solved (which it is now BTW) if I shoved dog poo through his letterbox (which was my first irate idea ) ...nope, by rationally speaking to him I got him to download porn at night when I couldn't care less

but this is taking us a bit off topic...I just hope my earlier reaction is a bit clearer now: so please read it again, calmly

[kpayson]

AS LONG AS I CAN KEEP GETTIING HIMD MEDIA, I'LL BE FINE.

AND IN 3-5 YEARS, HOPEFULLY THERE WILL BE FANTASTIC SMALL PORTABLE

HARD DRIVE OR CF (OR WHATEVER ITS FUTURE REPLACEMENT IS) RECORDING

DEVICES.

I HAD TO PICK UP SOME HIMD'S AND DAT TAPES FOR A RECORDING SESSION RECENTLY AND WAS AMAZED TO FIND ALMOST NO DAT TAPES AT FRYS IN LOS ANGELES.

IT HAPPENS TO THE BEST OF FORMATS, I GUESS.

I'LL JUST STOCK UP ON HIMDS.

THANKS FOR THE ENCOURAGEMENT - AFTER ALL THE MZM100 SHOULD SERVE ME WELL FOR THE NEXT FEW YEARS

[DmitryKo]

Not to offend anyone, but MD had its momentum maybe until late 1990s, then its popularity was apparently declining and Sony took no major steps to breathe a new life in it. To me, the future of MiniDisc seemed very uncertain right back in 2001, but it feels like Sony was thinking heir being first to market with lossy audio compression can save them from competition forever. They were wrong, and when they finally realised the threat from CD recorders and MP3 CD and flash players, their response was slow and inadequate.

NetMD was too little, too late, even if it were not crippled with that SonicStage of a disaster. But it were. Hi-MD could be somewhat more popular, if it weren't for DRM again. It could have a best chance if released, say, in the year 2000. But as flash memory is getting down to $30 per 1 GB with transfer speed an order of magnitude higher, Hi-MD simply has little chance, even with 2nd generation players' support for MP3 and user files.

I feel sorry for everyone who doesn't trust computers and hard drives, but for the price of 1 HiMD disc you can have 10 DVD-R discs with 47 times the storage, and for the price of 50 HiMD discs you can have a low-end PC with a DVD burner and a flash player. That's about it for proprietary media formats, noone wants them anymore.

Your MD unit is not going anywhere and you will still be able to use if for a long long time. I'd guess Sony won't be dropping Atrac3 support from their HD and flash players for a long time as well, so your PC library will be safe. And I can imagine how any future sound studio still having an ancient two thousands dollar ATRAC-R deck will offer to convert your "aging" grandpa MDs to new super hyper 3D holographic media, much like today's video studios offer to convert your old 16mm negative film to DVD

[g52ultra]

a lot of people tend to have this attitude that when a product, or even just a model gets replaced or discontinued, that the product becomes "obsolete." If you folks ever read any of those kooky IPOD forums, there's people who are really upset because they discontinued the IPOD mini for the Nano and think that because of that, their Mini is now "obsolete." Why should it even matter. You bought it. Enjoy it. I imagine Apple will still support it, in the way Apple supports everything: poorly. Whether they still make it or not. I have dealt with Apples customer service on th phone, and it was somewhat comical, and I also feel that they tend to look down on their customers.

I have looked at Sony and Panasonic as being the tops in customer service. That doesn't mean that I am loyal to them (and I'm not), but I do know that I was still able to get parts for a 20 year old Betamax machine from them, back in 1999.

I do remember Sony launching a big advertising campaign to revitalize minidisc and that was around the turn of the millenium. I saw more ads for Minidisc than in the earlier years. Forbes magazine had a writeup on it. At that point sales had dropped and I would believe that they did this because they felt their was a more of a market to reach out to. Apparently they never did. And this was when porta HD players, like the Remote Solutions PJB, Creative Labs Nomad 1 and the Rio were in their infancy. The word with Apple at that time was "IMAC!" -"IPOD" was still several years away.

And perhaps the Sony reorganization may be a good thing. This is a company that has been at odds with itself- a company who had the resources to revolutionize, develop media, but was also a publisher of video and music. Not only was it at odds with iteslf because of this- it's been at odds with the consumer too! Sony pissed off a lot of people who bought their products because the interfaces (things like the way Sony chooses to do copy management) frustrated people. And right now, for the first time in their history,Sony is in trouble. They are out of touch with the market, they don't have the huge cash reserves like they had and like most manufacturers, they are getting their butts beaten trying to compete with manufacturers who have the advantage (and take advantage)of labor laws in some Asian markets. Perhaps, for them, it's a good think they rattled their management before it gets worse. I can understand this. Because it is going to get worse for them

I agree with a lot of you folks that marketing was a disaster. I do believe that it was a case of poor marketing (The went through all that trouble and money to develop HiMD, but never backed it up). You can't design a product, produce it and then just stick it on a shelf a store and expect any success, unless you promote it. You do that so people will see it and you hype it. HD players were a cult market for years because although they were pretty cheap to make(all industry wide standard parts) the companies that were marketing them didn't have huge resources to market them. Apple changed that and they did it with a good product, although inferior to some of its rivals. By marketing. Lot's of it. Make it hip. Promote ease of use. Maybe Sony coulda had enjoyed some of this sucess if they hired Paris Hilton to demonstrate a HiMD and made the discs lime green and pink to boot..

I find it amusing that Sony brought out HiMD about the time the MO optical data drive market collapsed. Anybody ever seen how much an MO disc was a few years ago. No wonder they failed, and Iomega built its former Zip disc empire at the same time that MO came out. Zip discs weren't cheap either but MO was outright obscene in price. The technology to fuse MO and MD and create HiMD was their since the mid 90's! I remember looking at an MO drive in the late 90's and thinking this. Sonys MO drive market was one of pure greed.

I also believe that Sony marketed to the wrong audience. It should have been the Professional user. The packaging is all wrong too. Sony could make a real jewellike player along the lines of the MZ-NH1 and put OLED in it it like the R10 with full digital/analog I/O and USB2.0. This would be a standout machine. Even Creative Labs and IRiver abandoned full digital and analog I/O on their current HD players. And that's a tough market for those guys. They can't compete with IPOD! Rio just went out of buisness over it!

All of us here on this forum are not the masses! For whatever reason we chose to use MD, it's because what we found is what is comfortable for us. For the masses, Minidisc is not the way to go.

Looking back at the evolution of portable music for the masses, it went from the casette to the portable CD player to HD/Flash machines. Minidisc was a sideshow attraction that did fairly well, but never captured the masses. To capture the masses, you have to think like the masses and you do it by this assumption: "the masses are lazy."

I don't mean that to be patronizing, but it's a reality. It's because a lot of people do not want to have to deal with technology to get enjoyment. Or are too busy to deal with it. Look at all these IPOD places that specialize in copying your CD's to an IPOD for you and they actually make money doing that! So you either spoon feed the technology, or you make it as simple as possible. Casettes were so popular in part, because at the time they were the most portable solution, perhaps the only solution- I never saw anybody carrying around a portable reel to reel or record player in their pocket, and we wont even mention 8 track. AND you could buy casettes prerecorded! Minidisc never got that full support. And even in the era of casettes, portable recording models were just an audio lovers toy. It was not a toy for the masses. Today, an IPOD is the masses dream. No fuss, no having to carry media. The masses dont care about optical and analog I/O! they just want a headphone jack!

I find myself this way too, at times. I love my HiMD, but I find myself grabbing my Zen Micro more often. Just for the sheer purpose of listening to music. No fuss.

Anybody remember that Betamax, although a failure in the market place (another one of Sonys marketing disasters and self serving attitude, too), was the choice of professionals for years after. Media was and still is available. Just my feeling, but I would expect that even HiMD media will still be produced for some time. Considering that I can still get ahold of Sony UMatic tapes, thanks to the wonders of Ebay and a really long production run of MD, in the event Sony does drop this format, I would expect that even in 2025, you'll still be able to find this media. We al know for a fact that it was, and still is a good technolgy. For us.

The questions is that when Sony came out with HiMD, how much of a market did they expect to get? Who did they expect to be their target consumers? By the amount of models they came out, I figure they were expecting a lot more out of sales. So there's a couple options here.

1. Repackage the products into one or 2 models and position it in the marketplace with a clear strategy as to who your targeting this product to. I really doubt (especially given the fact that Sony is coming out with 2 HD based players with OLED by Christmas) that they would target HiMD against the HD player market. That's a lost war. My feeling is that the target market is the Pro user.

2. Abandon the whole idea, but offer support and media, because you don't want to alienate a consumer by feeling that they just bought an Oldsmobile. That's not a goodwill gesture. That's just good PR and smart marketing. This way they come back to a Sony product when they go shopping.

I expect these two things to be their stradegy because this is what Sony has done in the past. Sony is not in buisness because of peoples emotions. They are in buisness to make money. Just like everybody else is in this world. We sell products tailored to peoples emotions, but if the product doesn't sell, then we don't eat. It's a case of Sony weighing out how much they spent on development, what their manufacturing costs are and how much of a production run they need to achieve to make money so that they can recoup those costs. I would think that Sony's technolgy in MD, for the most part, has been paid for long ago, so it becomes a question of if they feel they can make money manufacturing MD in the future. Even so, these are still fairly complex constructed machines (a heck of a lot more production costs when your doing it alone, in a world of HD players made with worldwide standardized components that are shared in the manufacturing of other items) and they are never going to even come close to achieving anything beyond a "prosumer" market.

Edited October 3, 2005 by g52ultra

[infinityBBC]

greetings! i can say that i never purchased an MD recorder for one main reason - Sony did not allow for faster than real time copying to your computer until the newer format came out - was it HiMD? i mean, who wants to record to a digital format only to have to re-record it to your computer at REAL TIME? the notion is completely absurd!

and even then, i found ambiguity as to whether or not these would mount in Mac OS X, therefore it was not even an option for me. perhaps these issues were finally addressed, but without this, i would have never considered this format. if Sony had been "on the ball" they could have driven the MD format to be EXTREMEMLY popular in the semi-pro audio market, as i still have found NOTHING else that would fit my needs. i wonder why NO company seems to be attempting to fill this need???

the iPod on the other hand has been working multi-platform from the onset. my main gripe with it is no semi-professional recording option (even at this time to my knowledge).

if anyone here knows of a multi-platform savvy, portable, non-linear semi-pro digital recording solution, please let me know... thanks!

8-)

bbc@infinitygames.com

[raintheory]

I feel sorry for everyone who doesn't trust computers and hard drives, but for the price of 1 HiMD disc you can have 10 DVD-R discs with 47 times the storage, ...

Well, depending on how you look at it. I could record and re-record on that HiMD to my hearts desire and have plenty of storage.

I trust HiMD over DVD when it comes to getting scratched/broken/etc. too.

Edited October 3, 2005 by raintheory

[mrhiminidisc6]

Hi I'm new to this forum, I Received an email telling me that MD as a recording medium maybe coming to an end This is Definatley not good news. Its a fantastic invention and it would be one sorry day when and if it does go to be replaced with hard disc style drives. I prefer to record albums onto disc and keep them and swap out to albums or compilations of singles. I tend to listen late at night in bed with sennheiser headphones, can't be doing with in ear types. I recently bought the MZ-RH10 Hi-MD, wonderful sounding unit. My only bug bear is no output to amp apart from headphone jack, which really isn't

up to the job. I have original full size player MDS-JE640 which for recording music via coaxial is superb from my NAD cd player. But must confess to wanting a full size Hi-MD recorder. Why can't SONY offer some sort of deal upgrade or modify original players rather than building new ones and using up yet more of the worlds resources, but then i guess thats another story. I have the first MD player/recorder the MZ-1 and did have the player only model too, but that since really played up on me, so it had to go. Suffice to say I'm an avid lover of Minidisc and have been since it started. I couldn't live without them now Really Hi-MD is the disc version of DAT to a point anyway, if cd had the versatility of md editing, surely they could their pretty much the same thing after all. I could live with that I never had any problems with any of my minidiscs I still have the very first disc i recorded and it sounds as if i recorded it 5 minutes ago,. I'm a bit of an audio purist these days with the likes of DVD-audio and SACD so i can compare pretty much all of the formats. The worst being mp3 I did some on the hi-md and didn't like the results, all different volume levels between 128kbps to 256kbps not good at all. Give a solid clean recording and HI-MD to record onto please. I don't want it to end period.

[sant430_]

have you even read my post?...I never said we shouldn't contact them... I've even started a thread assembling user-experiences so we can send Sony a clear view of a bunch of ppl that like MD's features...but the post I reacted on spoke of semi-spamming every available Sony-emailaddress with this top-heavy borderline-ranting, overemotional and still based on speculation (sorry silence, that's not denial, I really think it's MD's end, but it's a fact that there has been no official announcement yet and the scope of the killoff isn't clear yet) thread and I do really believe that would kill all of MDCF's credebility with Sony... and yes, we have some... not only through kurisu's connections (which I do not want to abuse to vent my anger...if I had any) but also in the suggestions and user opinions spread out on the many pages here... or is it pure coincidence that there were that many pleas for unlimited uploading, MP3 support, un-DRM'ed ripping,... and then all of a sudden they were implemented? just think constructively! But if you want to change Sony's mind by sending them this thread in which you (and many others) are saying you will not buy any more Sony stuff as the managers leading the company can only take stupid decisions? good luck

we should send a polite invitation to read our forums and the petition (mentioned in my previous thread) and to start a dialogue with the semi-pro and amateur recording market (i.e. most of us) to work on an alternative (or to keep and improve some semi-pro HiMD models or something) as there is a big void in the available tools when it comes to portable recording

but please, if you are angry at Sony, do not disrespect/insult other members

and I do understand irate emotional reactions...but admit that that is all they are...take a deep breath and ... think rationally and calmly about what could/should be done... I just hope my earlier reaction is a bit clearer now: so please read it again, calmly

I was seriously irate and frustrated (clouded by emotion) friday after watching the sony reps and following this thread. Low Volta's on the money tho'. We know that Sony people do indeed come here to MDCF now and then. If we all utilize the announcement petition to post our gear, uses, and what attracts us to md/hi-md, we stand a much better chance of Sony being receptive to md users.

Everyone, if you haven't done so yet, please post your gear!!!

[Meryl Arbing]

I think that is the real issue. The unwashed masses who think that MP3 is the ultimate in audio quality had no interest in Live Recording...they thought that downloading to their MP3 player WAS recording. To them, the ability of their portable device to use a decent quality stereo microphone was unimportant...as long as they could rip the latest tracks ('borrowed' from a friend, bought from a store...and then returned, or stolen off the net) they were happy. There are too few Live Recording fans compared to the 'rip-off somebody else's music for nothing' mob.

As far as the future of portable digital recording goes...we can hope that Sony sees the potential for some other device to fill the gap for Live Recording enthusiasts...perhaps a recordable audio version of the UMD for the PSP?

For me, I'll keep using my Hi-MD recorders for as long as I can and ignore corporate decisions that I can't control.

Hmmm... 18,000 or so registered users in this forum. Think they are all reporters?

Seriously though... I do hope that somebody at Sony comes to their senses a bit and they at least continue development of MD/HiMD for the sake of LIVE RECORDING... When I bought my first MD recorder (also thee first MD recorder) I wasn't thinking at all about mp3 drag & drop, drm, or heck even a computer at all. I was thinking about plugging in a microphone and recording, without having to worry about tape hiss or wow/flutter.. The live recording bit is what sold me, and it's also what has kept me. If all I was worried about was listening to mp3s, there are plenty or reasons whyan ipod would make more sense to me. For me, MD is and has always been about high-quality recording. I'm not saying that I do not enjoy having the ability to transfer mp3's to my rh10 and listen to them.. . sure, it's convenient... but it's not why I bought the thing.

It just wouldn't make sense to me if Sony decides to drop the format because it can't compete with iPod... Bottom line is, they were both invented/conceptualized for different purposes and it doesn't make sense to discontinue a product because something that was made to do something else sells better.

Just my opinion though.

Oh and I do know of more than a few radio stations that use MD...

[MichaelBeardy]

I've been reading this thread for a little while now, and what really impresses me is the PASSION that people feel for the MD format.

People love MD (and HiMD).

Sony, if you're reading this.... PEOPLE LOVE MD. They're attached to it - it's a great format - it lets them do things they can't do with any other format.

Personally, I use HiMD quite a bit just to listen to my CDs on the move, at work, in the car, but I also use it to record live music, ambient sounds, birdsong, rivers, waterfalls, poetry. There is no other format that gives me the ease and quality that HiMD does.

My own view is that Sony is in a bit of a muddle at the moment - I recently bought their XDR-S1 digital radio - it's quite a nice product : well put together, but it does have quite a few bugs in the user interface - things just not properly thought out. I wouldn't have paid full price (£150) for it, but my local supermarket was selling it for less than half that price - kind of sums it up really, doesn't it? It sounds good, but there are quite a few features which are just a pain to use. I expect better from Sony, and right now it seems they can't deliver. My NH900 is the same - glitches in the firmware.... But does this mean they should drop the HiMD format? Hell no!

In some ways this isn't (or shouldn't be) about Sony capturing i-Pod territory, it's about Sony re-establishing themselves as a market leader, producing quality products that work first time - without glitches or software problems - products that do what what they say they do on the box. Trouble is, it seems that Sony don't have that at the moment.

I'm not sure it's all doom and gloom for MD just at the moment - I'll wait and see what happens next... But I did by a few more blank HiMDs today. Well, you never know...

Peace,

Michael

[g52ultra]

I think that is the real issue. The unwashed masses who think that MP3 is the ultimate in audio quality had no interest in Live Recording...they thought that downloading to their MP3 player WAS recording. To them, the ability of their portable device to use a decent quality stereo microphone was unimportant...as long as they could rip the latest tracks ('borrowed' from a friend, bought from a store...and then returned, or stolen off the net) they were happy. There are too few Live Recording fans compared to the 'rip-off somebody else's music for nothing' mob.

As far as the future of portable digital recording goes...we can hope that Sony sees the potential for some other device to fill the gap for Live Recording enthusiasts...perhaps a recordable audio version of the UMD for the PSP?

For me, I'll keep using my Hi-MD recorders for as long as I can and ignore corporate decisions that I can't control.

You bring up a very good point and that's where Sony has an advantage. Fully support portable digital and analog "recording" and playback - not to be confused with "downloading," in a pocket sized format. They've always been there on this frontier with MD. A lot of the first gen HD machines had this like the IRiver IHP's and the Creative Labs Nomads (actually the Nomad 3 was the only one that did it flawlessly), but neither were really what you would call pocket sized. And those companies gave it up, about the same time that the IPOD revolution took full swing (ironically about the same time as the release of HiMD, too). I find it interesting that these guys got out of it when there is clearly a market for these machines. Creative Labs, being a soundcard manufacturer, would have had much to gain, if they cotinued manufacturing the Nomad and marketing it to the Pro user. They never did this and instead focused themselves on fighting their losing war against the IPOD. They went from being the innovators in the market they helped to create and went to being copiers. And the evolution of pro audio took a step back when they dropped these features and solely focused themselves on making IPOD clones. I noticed Edirol (Rolands techno spinoff company) now makes a pocket sized four track now that's rather expensive and poorly designed and is doing fairly well with it! And the Edirol uses removeable CF cards. Removeable media is cool. Expensive media is NOT. Some ebay shopping turns up 512MB CF for $20. At 24bit, 48Khz on 4 tracks of digital..You can't do crap with 512MB!

A gig would be about right..

..on that note, let's imagine this: a 4 track pocket sized HiMD with an OLED. It'd be like the "IPOD of the pro market." And actually sit down with the guys over at Cakewalk and Cubasis and develop a software solution that actaullyWORKS. The door is waiting to be opened.

Edited October 3, 2005 by g52ultra

[sjp777]

I have been totally devoted to the format since the mid 90's. I'm on my second MDS-J510 deck and my 4th md walkman, MZ-N10 this time. I also have a MDX-C7900 in the car. MD has always been the perfect solution for me for portable audio. I could easily go from PC to car to living room stereo or mobile all with the same disc.

I bought an Ipod Mini about a month ago, then returned it for a Nano on the day it came out.

I have to admit, I haven't touched my walkman since and just spent $200 on top of the price of the Nano for a mount, car cable and XA-300 to hook it to the car deck.

I love the MD format and it served me very well for a decade, but it may be time for me to move on. There is something to be said for having 4gb of instantly accessable music on a player not much bigger than an md disc and can load at about a 3 sec per song transfer rate. I would have to keep over 60 MDs in the car to have the same capacity as one tiny Nano.

If this is the end, I have no regrets. It was a damn good run.

[kalo]

Wow, it looks like every single board member has commented on this one thread!!

Edited October 3, 2005 by kalo

[garcou]

But I do. First, there is no official statement yet. We should atleast await that.

Second, what is very important, is HOW that contact is made.

Steaming off isn't helping anything. Instead it would reinforce a decision to drop the format.

Plus, we should also see, if Sony offers an alternative, one that might even offers a higher usability/performance/value than MD.

Another thing: Some posts here have a disturbing tone.

To be frank, I don't like reading things like 'Sony can go to hell'.

I strongly suggest, that anyone here cools down and reread the message before clicking on 'Add Reply'.

It isn't that hard to stay civilized, isn't it?

The truth is that we-all MD SUPPORTERS- have been sleepping for a long time (how many time since the last petition for suppression of "end search"?)

There is a long time that we should have kindly (but with insistance) contacted Sony for they produced Hi-md deck, Hi-md car unit, MD photo and so advertised MD as an UNIVERSAL REMOVABLE MEDIA FOR A WIDE RANGE OF CONSUMMERS.

Instead of this, we are now waking up in a deffensive reaction that can often turn to angery. Yes Sony is Sony , but Sony of the 90's and 2000's (with Sonymusic contengency) is sadly not Sony that created the walkman in the 70's. And for this Sony can be blamed.

But I still think that, what we have to do now, is to make POSITIVE AND KIND SUGGESTIONS to Sony for improving MD sales - WITHOUT WAITING THEY MAYBE DROP THE FORMAT. As we should have done long time ago.

Of course, if Sony finally kills the Md, as I've told before, I will boycot Sony, Sonymusic and all products. For sure.

Edited October 3, 2005 by garcou

[brian geddes]

For me MD is the best thing out. I use a full size unit as my main source playback/record in my Hi-fi system and also have a play only walkman. When I started my interest in music a hi-fi system was not complete with out a recording device. Reel to reel was the main recording source with a Revox as the ultimate. I kept to reel to reel and never bothered with cassette decks due to their inferior sound although latterly some examples were acceptable. When Minidisc came out it was, and still is a dream format. I have over a hundred discs of irreplaceable music. If Minidisc goes what do we have left for recording? Nothing or am I missing something?

The other aspect is that Minidisc is used a lot in semi-professional and professional applications and there is very little that can replace its versatility. You will find the majority of artists who use a lot of different venues, I have experience of this on cruise ships UK and USA, use minidisc. Are there still going to decks made for professional use or is that out the window as well?

[Menthol Moose]

I loved the MD format too, but really nostalga aside... removable media is dead. Sorry, its as simple as that.

Flash memory is just so cheap, 2mb and 4mb players will soon be standard. Some company will make a decent pocket sized recording device with excellent fidelity like the MD, and soon all your worries will be over. "But i can change MD disks over when they get full", yes but with say 4gb of flash memory just how many hours will you need, even at uncompressed rates of recording ? Upload direct from the device to a PC with no DRM with the speed of USB2.

And it will also function as a portable music player.

Sony will not bring the MD back, the best thing to do now is to get them to hear your calls for a hi-fidelity portable recording device using flash memory. But knowing the good old sony we love, it will be crippled by DRM and a demonic plague of software like sonic stage.

[King Ghidora]

I've looked through this thread since I posted my first comment and not one person has addressed the real issue here. There are other recording devices being sold NOW that are equal with MD in quality and superior in features in some ways.

I know this is a MD board and MD has devoted fans. There has always been good reasons to be devoted to MD. But we all know Sony dropped the ball with marketing MD and they crippled MD because of their split imperatives.

There are now devices that get around the limitations Sony built into MD. There are BETTER technologies available NOW that cost about the same as a good MD.

I've been a huge fan of MD for years because there was nothing else that matched it. That is no longer true.

Yes the new technology isn't proven to be as robust as MD but isn't solid state recording going to be far more robust than any moving device recording will ever be? Yes it will be hard to match the battery life of MD but is that really all that important with the advent of NIMH batteries?

The future is here guys. If Sony doesn't decide to keep up they will lose the loyalty of the musicians and recording junkies. So what if they kill off MD. There are better things out there RIGHT NOW!

I can't believe no one is talking about this. Doesn't anyone visit sites like The Musician's Friend or zZounds?

MD has had a great run. It will hold a special place for me for the rest of my life. I will keep using my MD until it just won't work any more. But hey I thought the same thing about my AIWA portable cassette recorder with Dolby. The truth is MD is showing it's age. Technology marches on. It's time to move to the next big thing. MP3 will never be it. Multitrack hard drive based and solid state recording are here NOW. MD won't do what these things will do. I guess there are still people who say we should all be listening to vinyl and they have a point to an extent. But the truth is vinyl is dead. Cassettes are dead. DAT is dead. DCC is dead. CD's are dying. And MD is nearly dead. We just don't need it any more. There are better things available.

Some company will make a decent pocket sized recording device with excellent fidelity like the MD, and soon all your worries will be over.

They already do Moose. And this is just one of many to come. MD can't do what these things will do right now. And the technology is just getting up to speed. In 5 years we will look back at MD like we look back at cassettes right now.

I've posted on this twice in this thread already. It's amazing how many people just aren't looking at the future. It looks like me and you and not too many more.

[garcou]

All of us here on this forum are not the masses! For whatever reason we chose to use MD, it's because what we found is what is comfortable for us. For the masses, Minidisc is not the way to go.

Looking back at the evolution of portable music for the masses, it went from the casette to the portable CD player to HD/Flash machines. Minidisc was a sideshow attraction that did fairly well, but never captured the masses. To capture the masses, you have to think like the masses and you do it by this assumption: "the masses are lazy."

AND you could buy casettes prerecorded! Minidisc never got that full support. And even in the era of casettes, portable recording models were just an audio lovers toy. It was not a toy for the masses. Today, an IPOD is the masses dream. No fuss, no having to carry media. The masses dont care about optical and analog I/O! they just want a headphone jack!

The point is that the masses do not make live music recording but make photo/video live recording.

considering that Hi-md 1GB allows 500kbps encoding ,it allows 30min SQ quality MPEG2 video.

Hi-MD is ideal for archiving (durability of magneto optical,size-smaller would be unlabellable)

I still pretend prerecorded Hi-Mds are possible for the same price than prerecorded CDs.

The only way for himd is universality. And if the masses are lazy, Sony should advertise it by showing it's easier to just take a MD before to jump in our car than connecting to computer for delete some tracks from our full HD player in order to download the bad mp3 encoding last LP of our favorite music band!

[hawksburn]

MD is dead. Sony will now concentrate on HDD players like the new Sony 20GB Walkman, I brought the unit and now I'm sold. I can compress my music using ATRAC3plus so now have no need to use MD disks that I can only fit a couple of hundred songs on then have to change. Now I currently have 4500 at 132mps ATRAC quality with about 5GB left to add to. The MD is surely dead, especially with a possible IPOD killer that the new Walkman is that Sony will surely spend more of it's money developing and perfecting.

Technology is superceded all the time. Why support a technology that less and less people will use. Sure, there may be some sort of support from Sony for the MD for the professional music industry, but only till something better comes along.

[bogon07]

The Minidisc taught me something. The beauty of an album and uniform sound. Having all my sound quality all the same again made my music feel more 'clean'. And I went back to listening to the WHOLE album instead of random songs. It made me understand the artist I love more and more. I know ipods can technicaly do all of that, but its not my style, and i like to have a disc i can actually feel. something I can wiggle in my hand as I look at my friend and say "You GOT to hear this!!"

I want to thank Minidisc for that, and I hope whatever comes next will do the same for me. Beacuase I dont want to go back to the drag and drop.

This is one of the beauties of Minidisc because you aren't worried about running out of space you can record whole albums (or whole artist's collections) and play them in the order and entirety they were intended to be listened too. You can create disc devoted to a single artist or style. Sure you can jam a fair bit onto a flash or HD player but with MD you can always put more on another disc rather than delete part of your collection or buy a new player. You can see why the iPod shuffle came about with a finite amount of space there is a potential for boredom and playing in random order particially overcomes this along witha nostalgia for radio.

Minidisc also gives you a range of sound quality to record your music.

I really like the idea of being able to have my music in discreet little packages. Panasonic has a removable flash player SV-SD100V but at the moment 1GB flash cards are much more expensive than 1GB HiMDs and seem too insubstantial. Besides I've spent a lot of time and effort putting music I like on minidiscs.

Such a pity if Sony drops MiniDisc as they put a lot of effort into developing and improving it.

I think their credibility as a company is at stake; for developing technologies they keep to themselves then dropping them. Is the new PSP doomed to a short deadend future too?