NickyJay Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 The problem with hi-md is that it maxes out at 16-bit resolution in Sonicstage. I'm not sure about the Onkyo hi-md units that rip directly from CD to MD, these may have 20-bit or 24-bit resolution. The older Sony decks which had standard SP 292kps have 20-bit, 22-bit and 24-bit resolution on the AD filters. This is the reason MDs recorded and played on them sound identical if not better to an uncompressed 16-bit CD. Oh and vinyl does sound a lot better than CD, but I still listen to CDs so it's not too bad. With some adjustments I can make up for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfbp Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 The problem with hi-md is that it maxes out at 16-bit resolution in Sonicstage. I'm not sure about the Onkyo hi-md units that rip directly from CD to MD, these may have 20-bit or 24-bit resolution. The older Sony decks which had standard SP 292kps have 20-bit, 22-bit and 24-bit resolution on the AD filters. This is the reason MDs recorded and played on them sound identical if not better to an uncompressed 16-bit CD. Oh and vinyl does sound a lot better than CD, but I still listen to CDs so it's not too bad. With some adjustments I can make up for it. Not so fast. Nearly all the modern recorders back to the R900 generation have a 20-bit A->D made by AKM Semiconductor, with a number like AK5354VT or AK5356VN. The decks generally do have 24-bit A->D chips. I'm not convinced by your claim about SonicStage being only 16-bit. Transfers TO HiMD sound perfectly decent, and the HiMD OMA file can be played back (without using Sony hardware at all) from the PC with good results. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickyJay Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 Not so fast. Nearly all the modern recorders back to the R900 generation have a 20-bit A->D made by AKM Semiconductor, with a number like AK5354VT or AK5356VN. The decks generally do have 24-bit A->D chips. I'm not convinced by your claim about SonicStage being only 16-bit. Transfers TO HiMD sound perfectly decent, and the HiMD OMA file can be played back (without using Sony hardware at all) from the PC with good results. Stephen The great thing about Sony is that they absolutely rocked with their hardware, but their software sucks. Regarding the portable units, they of course have similar AD filters which means they too can access 24-bit resolution. That is going through the analogue route though, you're stuck at 16-bit if you go digitally. On my Sony decks however I can send the full 24-bit stream through the digital out with the flick of a switch. I can't prove that Sonicstage maxes at 16-bit resolution, so you may well be right when you say it must go higher than that. It is just a hunch - I remember reading that the program itself can only burn audio at 16-bit 44.1khz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paperclip Posted May 3, 2011 Report Share Posted May 3, 2011 Hearing is a funny thing, I don't think it's just your eardrums. I gotta agree with Wiz that much of it is feeling. Then there's the brain which can be trained to notice certain things like artifacts. Heck, I used to be able to tell if there was a CRT Television on in the house because of the HF it put out. I've heard of others who could hear that but never met one personally. Some years ago I sat down and actually blind tested several codecs to figure out my best practices. PCM was pretty easy to pick out right away. Soundstage - just like Wiz says. Nothing else came close when compared. ATRAC Lossless I did not find lossless at all and was sad. Maybe the FILE is lossless and the playback chain is not right, who knows? But in my mind, if it changes the soundstage enough to notice it's not lossless. I think that's one of the reasons I like MD so much, it does a real good job at keeping the soundstage intact, considering the bitrate. I'd be lying if I said MD sounded better than PCM or vinyl or whatever. I like holding the discs in my hand, looking at labels, reading notes, etc... That's a large part of it for me. I say in the end, let your ears be the judge, spend the bulk of your budget on speakers, turn off every fan you can and ENJOY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfbp Posted May 3, 2011 Report Share Posted May 3, 2011 You are aware though that Atrac Lossless only plays back on a computer AKAIK, not on Walkmans. Not true, Oz. My only problem (hahah!) is that the one flash walkman I have doesn't work with SS, because it's too new. All the recent models that DO support Atrac, support AAL. Whether or not they use the information is another issue, cynical yours truly suspects that the playback is of the lossy part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zahne Posted May 3, 2011 Report Share Posted May 3, 2011 I think that last big chance for MD/Hi-MD to get a few more years in was the Sony PSP. If the PSP came out in 2005 and used a Hi-MD disc with 1GB capacity to store the data the made up a game instead of a UMD then you would've had a new MD unit that has the backing of the gaming community to keep it alive. The new NGP also has a UMD drive for legacy games. If they had a Hi-MD drive in the PSP then the forthcoming NGP would also be a forthcoming Hi-MD player. More than that, there would be Hi-MD movies too! I wonder why did Sony spend the money to support a whole new media format (UMD) when they could've used the Hi-MD format. A single layer UMD hold 900MB and the Hi-MD is not far off at 1GB. It's a shame it would have been really cool to pop in a standard MD with meta data on it and sift through the tracks like that. I don't think you'll get anything from Sony. Especially since they are not the mobile devices giant they were a five or so years ago. Tascam still soldiers on though! You could petition for a mobile MD device from them or a Hi-MD one. I think the only kind of MD revival that will happen is what folks like us do for it. -Album releases -Innovations -Tutorials -Rethinking of uses etc. -Ease of access (the pricier things are the harder it will be get more people involved and the more assured you are that it won't catch on) -Figure out what audience would want MD if they can just get an iPod. (I for one use an Mp3 player for casual listening but have the MD's for my favorite music just like my Vinyl collection) Also I treat MD like a fun craft, the way I record the music, I design cover art and custom labels etc. Cater to audiophiles. Folks that'll have a jam packed iPod for "whatever" listening...atmosphere etc. Then have MDs when they really want to engage in the music and listen. IMO mp3 and aac just don't cut it. I know ATRAC is lossy but it just sounds like a better lossy to me. Getting to work on the listed suggestions and others are ways to get things revitalized. Like homebrewers and hackers with classic gaming. Also Super8mm was used for home movies it had a hayday in the 60's and 70's and now has found its way into being a new kind of artistic style for post-modern and experimental filmmaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paperclip Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 Atrac Lossless should sound as good as PCM though, theoretically all the information that was originally with the PCM is still there, just like with Alac & Flac. You are aware though that Atrac Lossless only plays back on a computer AKAIK, not on Walkmans. I read quite a lot about AAL when it first came out. Then HDD were more expensive and I used MD's both at home and on the road, so I thought it would be perfect for my uses. But it didn't sound like PCM and I could pick it out (blind) among 4 different codecs. I haven't even tried FLAC - after AAL I figured it would fail also. Now with better extraction tools and cheaper HDD's I just keep all my CD's on an NAS (.wav) and burn MD's when I need them...Zahne - your post is full of win! Do you want me to send you a PSP and a Hi-MD to get started? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfbp Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 I read quite a lot about AAL when it first came out. Then HDD were more expensive and I used MD's both at home and on the road, so I thought it would be perfect for my uses. But it didn't sound like PCM and I could pick it out (blind) among 4 different codecs. I think it depends a lot on what you are listening TO. Anything with noise "built in" will sound "less real" but good studio recordings should be (and are mostly) ok even at low bitrates. However I don't think that AAL playback involves playing back the part that is used to restore the "full" waveform. If you compare 132kbps AAL to 256kbps AAL you will find that the relation is the same as LP2 to Hi-SP. BUT when you convert one to the other (eg output regular LP2 from a 256kbps AAL), now magically it works! The "lossless part" is only used to go BACK to WAV from where you started. That's why you cannot generate AAL from any already-compressed sounds, you're trying to reinvent the square root of -1, if you take my metaphor. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paperclip Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 I was listening to the Foo Fighters - Stanger Things Have Happened. It's Dave Grohl playing a guitar in a quiet room with a metronome, if you are interested. Doesn't get more quiet than that... It split the sound stage high to low and the voice was both near and far - totally unlike PCM. MP3/4 had almost the same effect. Try it for yourself if you have any doubts. Why would there even BE AAL if not all of it was used on reproduction? Honestly, that statement just defies all logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfbp Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 Why would there even BE AAL if not all of it was used on reproduction? Simple. It's a storage format that saves space. Sony actually explain its purpose in the SS help file quite well. It was never intended per se to be a playback format, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paperclip Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Ok, but if it's just for storage - and the lossless part is not used upon reproduction - why not just store the ATRAC3/+ at 1/5-1/10 the file size? That makes no sense at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfbp Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 So that it can be converted properly to other bit rates. That's the point of lossless, it seems to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odyssey Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 >>>>>> Makes sense, especially 10 years ago, for digitizing purposes. But, why did you aim to finish the 'production cycle' in CD (instead of stopping at MDs)? Just wondered. mdmad. <<<<<<< AS long as we are enjoying MDs, it is not dead. But usage of the MD is a bit different today. It is still the best for mobile and travel. But your masters should be CDs. then compile your music of choice to MD for your traveling pleasure. Keep your recording in a file or erase and make another compilation from your CD masters. The MD is an easy to use device that goes everywhere with us. I am hearing talk of the IPUDS not holding up for travel and such, seems they are falling apart. sheesh! I know where I had only a MD recording, you CAN save it by recording on line out to CD for a record but you wont be able to get a good recording on a MD again from that CD. Keep those MDs Spinning ... EDIT ( 05-24-2011 I just wanted to mention that the MDs are not just available thru EBay, nasty little company. Many Tape and media suppliers still have them even today. This includes the 80 minute and Hi Mds though it seems the media suppliers like to sell the 80 minute discs and not the HiMD but some will offer HiMD. The Sony Professional disc that sold for over 5 dollar each is indeed discontinued, Sony Stopped production about 6 months ago and they are sold on a " as available " basis, meaning as long as they are on the shelf, they are available. All this was true up to the earthquake/Tsunomi in Japan. I have not heard if Sony will resume MD media production or just take it as a loss and move on. Now don't you think it is odd, that there is such a community, as the MD Community with all the MD units and yet SONY says they were a non-issue in the US. True, US sales were sluggish for many reasons, including SONYS blindsidedness, But there are a lot of MiniDisc units in the US for a Non Issue Country. to be continued''' Keep those MD's spinning, why else are you here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrencouch Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 I still use the minidisc even though I have an Iphone and a computer with plenty of music on it, but I honestly hate iTunes much much more than sonicstage in terms of a software manager for music. I have attempted to sit down several times and throw some music onto the darn phone, but never manage to do it. Also, the times I have had music on it, it has a tendency to "butt-play" in my pocket, usually in the middle of a teachers lecture, etc. It also kills my battery, which is no bueno. communication>music on the phone. I am no audiophile, but with LP2 and a Type-S deck (recorded 1:1) and 20 dollar headphones I can hear the tape-hiss of the original mastertape on some recordings. Cymbal crash sounds proper. Perhaps it just sounds more "analogue-y" to me, which is what I grew up with. It is also just one of the most versatile things I have ever used. I can throw a disc in with music on it, pop a mic in and record a lecture, and store all of my homework on the same disk! It's not the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it does exactly what I need it to do with a minimum of fuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippeC Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 I don't why, this topic continue day after day to appear in my unread list and yet there is no new post since - mine - and the 27 october. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfbp Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 asked - and answered - a while back. Someone clicks on the poll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippeC Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Aaaaaaaaaaaaaah ! I was not aware of that detail ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azureal Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 I was the one who asked Philippe, and it drives me nuts too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassmanjuju Posted December 31, 2011 Report Share Posted December 31, 2011 I'm a previous MD user way back 2001(forgot the model), now I'm back after years of having my NW-HD5 which serves me well through the years. With the availability of high resolution portable headphone amps and IEM's, MD is the ultimate source of high definition recording to complete the audio signal chain in terms of portability. Imagine enjoying the same music from your home rig away home. I'm voting to bring it back...waiting for my MZ-RH1 from ebay to complement with my RSA Shadow Amp and Westone W4R & UM Custom (with PCM recording). Maybe I'm too late to realize it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEKWRX Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 I've been using my RH10 the past few days to digitize all my old DJ vinyl records. It's the cleanest way to get a signal for me. Recording direct to the PC always gives me noise issues. I run my turntable into my Sony DA4ES receiver, then to my JB940 deck as a AD-DA pass-through, using optical out from the 940 to the RH10 recording in PCM. Then upload to PC with SS, automatically converting to WAV. Then use audacity to clean up the audio/fix levels, then export to FLAC. Sounds complicated, but I've got the workflow down and it gives the best quality. These vinyl rips sound awesome. The only real annoying this is the slow transfers from the RH10 to the PC. Not sure if it's a hardware issue or just that SS sucks.... I wanted to use my Sony PCM-M10 recorder that I use these days to record live concerts, but lack of digital input means I still have a use for HiMD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azureal Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 I think Stephen (sfbp) has devised a fix for the slow upload issue. It is somehow related to an outdated NetMD driver causing issues with Hi-MD uploads. I could be wrong, but do a search on "Hi-MD upload" or such and see what you can discover ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfbp Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 Nah, uploading PCM is just incredibly slow because there is so much data, equivalent to about 6 "standard" MDs. For analogue non-microphone sources I remain unconvinced that PCM recording rates buy me anything. But to each his own..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THIS SUCKS Posted January 27, 2012 Report Share Posted January 27, 2012 there was a driver problem causing the pcm uploads to take ten times longer than normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfbp Posted January 27, 2012 Report Share Posted January 27, 2012 there was a driver problem causing the pcm uploads to take ten times longer than normal. Sorry, not true. The 10x speed was on legacy uploads using the NetMD protocol on an RH1. The question raised was about uploading of (L)PCM from a HiMD. This is unaffected by the problem described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimma Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 BTW, I was in Sony Service Centre to order a part yesterday (to fix my "new" bookshelf unit) and on the wall there was a poster created in 1999 or 2000 showing the history of the (cassette) walkman. There was a whole page of them, about 15 columns by 30 rows, I think. I think this beats MD in numbers of models by one company by quite a bit Stephen I stumbled across this picture which covers roughly half the MiniDisc's life (from Hong Kong I believe) and it clearly demonstrates the disparity between the numbers of Sony MD Walkmans and the tape equivalent that Stephen mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paperclip Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 I really like that timeline, Jimma. Is there somewhere I can get a hi-rez copy, I'm working on a display right now and it would fit in nicely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hungerdunger Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Do a Google search under "Images" for "sony_hk_timeline" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfbp Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 Does any one else, after clicking on the only image, get weird stuff from some commercial site when they do this, in the background, and also when you close the image that pops up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippeC Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Does any one else, after clicking on the only image, get weird stuff from some commercial site when they do this, in the background, and also when you close the image that pops up? Very common for me. But this is always in vietnamese language. When clicking X or Yes or Cancel, all they open a commercial site (with many other popups). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfbp Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 I think your computer's JS (Javascript) is infected, Philippe. That's why when I have been to your links in the past, strange things have happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippeC Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 It is not an infection in fact, I am in Vietnam and I think that some weird companies pay the providers for such a pirate marketing. The 3 commercial for Ipad there are shaking... typically like a virus do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippeC Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 I found a good software to check such hacking activities : collusion for Firefox browser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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