The Return to MD

[RustyRoses]

Hi all,

Now in my 30s, I have fond memories as a teen of recording albums to MD and typing out all the track names. I never could afford to buy an album new. I was later seduced by the iPod and now I get all the music I could ever want through Spotify on my Galaxy S7 Edge...

However, it's just not the same. I'm certainly starting to notice that I don't listen to "good" quality recordings anymore.

So I thought I'd pick up a few old albums on MiniDisc for the nostalgia, and looked into getting a good MD player again. 

 

This is where I discovered what happened after I left MDs behind - HI-MD! 

Considering that I still have CDs in storage and Vinyls too, that my record deck can record over USB to WAV format, I'm keen to get some PCM tracks onto one of the last gen MD portables.

 

So where do I start? Am I going to have to pony up £350+ for a unit and £35 for 1GB discs? Eep! And man, the cost of some of the pre-recorded ones...

 

Thanks! 

Cris

 

Ps: I'm based in the UK, and these are the Albums I'm looking for.

Frank Sinatra	Collector's Series
Massive Attack	Mezzanine
Bob Dylan	Blood On The Tracks
Jeff Wayne	Jeff Wayne's Musical Version Of The War Of The Worlds
The Beach Boys	Greatest Hits
Madonna	Ray Of Light
Queen	Greatest Hits II
Pet Shop Boys	Discography (The Complete Singles Collection)
AIR	The Virgin Suicides
Genesis	Turn It On Again (The Hits)
Madness	Divine Madness
AIR	Moon Safari
Mike Oldfield	Tubular Bells
Enigma	The Screen Behind The Mirror
Mike Oldfield	Tubular Bells II
William Orbit	Pieces In A Modern Style
Massive Attack	Blue Lines
Chicane	Behind The Sun

[sfbp]

Welcome!

For my money, there is absolutely no point at all in using PCM 1411 as a playback format. It's quite useful for recording as there's a wide dynamic range easily coped with which can be edited on a computer. But, IMHO, if you can hear a difference when listening through headphones, you are mainly falling victim to marketing hype and me-tooism. ATRAC (which PCM is emphatically not) is a scalable (logarithmic) 24-bit format, and will nearly always sound better than straight 16 bits.

The gem in Hi-MD is not PCM, but Hi-SP. For lower data rates, LP2 and LP4 are still pretty good, especially when recorded starting from a premastered sound source such as a CD or digital radio broadcast. If you really want linear, best to go to the 24-bit-capable PCM-M10.

[PhilippeC]

Even our good old SP mode is perfect for listening.

For me the most important is to touch MDs and units, they gave you the same feeling than I got 30 years ago (LPs ans K7s).

[Syrius]

You can get my RH1 for 220 pound plus ship.

[RustyRoses]

Wow, thanks for the knowledge dump, I appreciate it! 

I will look into Hi-SP and ATRAC for sure - tell me, are all the pre-recorded albums using the same recording settings? I guess there are no HI-MD specific albums, right? They'd have to play on every MD player to meet the licensing requirements?

Syrius - thanks for the offer, but that's about £100 plus shipping more than I hoped to spend .

[RustyRoses]

I've had a quick look, and I see there's a 352kbps flavour of ATRAC3plus and that it can be created on your laptop and "downloaded" to a HI-MD device. Anyone have experience with that here?

Also, am I right in guessing that this function is only on HI-MD recorders, and not HI-MD players?

Thanks 

[sfbp]

TBH 352 never sounded that much better than 256.

What **is** amazing is how good some of the low bitrate stuff is. I have hundreds of hours of stuff at 66 and 132. For those one wants to record a digital source directly to a deck.

Forget pre-recorded disks.

[freddyjollo]

8 hours ago, sfbp said:

TBH 352 never sounded that much better than 256.

What **is** amazing is how good some of the low bitrate stuff is. I have hundreds of hours of stuff at 66 and 132. For those one wants to record a digital source directly to a deck.

Forget pre-recorded disks.

if you can find any......

[punkrockaddict]

8 hours ago, sfbp said:

TBH 352 never sounded that much better than 256.

What **is** amazing is how good some of the low bitrate stuff is. I have hundreds of hours of stuff at 66 and 132. For those one wants to record a digital source directly to a deck.

Forget pre-recorded disks.

Hi there ;-)

i have to disagree concerning the A3+352.

If you play them on a Deck ( Onkyo Hi-MD Deck MD133 in my case ) the Sound is as close to CD as Atrac3+ can get.I tested some files with Hi-SP vs. A3+352 and to me the later one wins each time. I use to import CDs , which i´v ripped with EAC before, to SoS and transfer them straight to a reformatted 80min Disc in A3+ 352.

That´s about the best choice to be made if you own a Hi-MD Deck and want the best possible SQ.

Mind you the SQ of a portable is far inferior when playing back A3+ so maybe that´s why some don´t spot a difference.

It´s a bit disappointing the Decks can´t record all the A3+ modes but at least the play them just fine :-)

Just my experience.. others may or will see this different

[RustyRoses]

Thanks for the info everyone!

Regarding bitrates, I'm looking for portable fidelity, so I'm happy to try out 352. 

The interest in pre recorded is as much about nostalgia and collecting my favorite albums, as listening to them, but as I will be getting hold of some, I'd still like to know about them as recordings. 

I have most of them on CD and vinyl anyways, so I could make my own copy and compare, for the fun of it. 

[RustyRoses]

Well, a quick update - I managed to score an MZ-NH1 for a good price, however I now need to source the unique data cable :/

Currently there are none on eBay... 

[0xReki]

Looks like I'm not the only one who just recently got into the mood of buying a MD player. While I was able to get a MZ-NH600 I can't really get the software (SonicStage) to run my Windows 10 machine. Does anyone have any idea of what I can use?

EDIT:

Never mind seems like this page is the only one with a working copy of SonicStage.

[0xReki]

On 12/18/2016 at 9:16 PM, RustyRoses said:

Well, a quick update - I managed to score an MZ-NH1 for a good price, however I now need to source the unique data cable :/

Currently there are none on eBay... 

Did you mean these cables: https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss/253-9461584-2154902?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=minitoslink

[RustyRoses]

This is the MZ-NH1's Data Cable which allows the transfer from PC to MD in 352kbps Atrac

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SONY-MINIDISC-MD-USB-DATA-CABLE-LEAD-FOR-SONY-MZ-NH1-MZ-NH3D-MZ-N10-MZ-DH10P-/272485513297?hash=item3f7166f851:g:DusAAOSw5cNYQWID

I contacted him, and he has none left :/

[0xReki]

Oh that definitely doesn't look like standard USB. Good luck.

[RustyRoses]

Yeah, it isn't.

[NGY]

I am not sure, whether or not you like these guys, but they seem to have the cable you are looking for, >> here <<.

Price is a different matter though.

[RustyRoses]

Thanks for the link NGY. If i have to get one from Aliexpress, i will, but i'd rather grab one that's already in the UK if possible....

[NGY]

Yes, I agree. Shipments from the Far East can be a pain in the neck, and frequently they are ...

[0xReki]

And if customs doesn't like you they'll say it doesn't have a CE logo so you can't import it.

[PhilippeC]

Aliexpress : pretty sure that the cable will not be sent from Vietnam but from China

more links :

http://www.dhgate.com/store/product/usb-data-cable-cord-for-sony-netmd-mz-n10/213702595.html

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-original-SONY-USB-CABLE-FOR-MZ-N10-MZ-NH1-MZ-NH3-MZ-DH10-DH10P-net-MD-/252183840858

and for MZ-RH serie

https://www.amazon.com/Classic-Straight-WALKMAN-Charge-Capabilities/dp/B002VASDNS

 

 

[NGY]

1 hour ago, PhilippeC said:

Aliexpress : pretty sure that the cable will not be sent from Vietnam but from China

Definitely, no doubt.

For some reason, I always get this language page, and I have to click on the upper right corner to get to their global site.

[RustyRoses]

thanks for the extra links - looks like everyone's just ordering them from Aliexpress themselves and passing them on with a markup.

[RustyRoses]

An update - I still don't have the right USB cable (for now) but in the mean time, I've begun converting my music collection to FLAC from CD and Vinyl, dumping my MP3s. 

My father in law had a load of used and unopened blanks, so I'm sorting through those at the moment. I've got about 50 in total, most are Sony and Sharp with lots of the 10th Anniversary clear ones and transparent purple 80min Sharps. I have a single 1GB disc at the moment. 

Until I pick up the correct USB cable, I'll be using a TOSLink cable with 2x Mini TOSLink adaptors between my MacBook and my MZ-NH1 on Hi-SP. It's not the 352kbps version of Atrac, but it's the best I can do at the moment.

I'm also eyeing up a Sony PHA-1a and a pair of OPPO PM3s...

[Jimma]

You may know this already but unfortunately SonicStage doesn't recognise FLAC files.  You will have to use something like FLAC Frontend to change them back to WAVs before importing them into SonicStage for transfer to your NH1 once you get your USB cable.

The MZ-NH1 is a fantastic bit of kit and I'm sure you'll be very happy with it.  I love mine:)

 

[sfbp]

21 minutes ago, Jimma said:

You may know this already but unfortunately SonicStage doesn't recognise FLAC files.  You will have to use something like FLAC Frontend to change them back to WAVs before importing them into SonicStage for transfer to your NH1 once you get your USB cable.

Good point. In fact making a 16-bit file from FLAC is a downgrade (quite a considerable one) from the original CD. What you should do with FLAC files is to convert them direct to the ATRAC file of your choice using Sound Forge 10. SF9 does not understand FLAC, by the way.

[NGY]

7 hours ago, sfbp said:

In fact making a 16-bit file from FLAC is a downgrade (quite a considerable one) from the original CD.

I am not sure I get this.

In the past, I have archived near 700 CD-s into FLAC, and whenever I converted those files back to WAV I did get the exact copy of the original CD. I used EAC, with "superparanoid" settings, i.e., for gap detection, offset correction, etc. To verify file integrity I used CRC check and md5sum. I did some comparison at the very beginning, burnt a CD from those FLAC/WAVs with the appropriate CUE file, then ripped it again and compared to the original CD. I got bit for bit copies, so I stopped this time consuming process when saw the back up was identical to the original.

I might have missed though something I was not aware of, but I still convert those FLAC files back to WAV with Audacity instead of spinning the original CD-s, when I need an MD copy.

[RustyRoses]

I see, thanks for the info.

[sfbp]

The point is (I think) that CD's are really 20-bit (or so recording) dithered down to 16 bits. You may or may not get the exact bits by ripping a CD. All your experiment proves is that you get the same 16 bits every time you do it. There are different algorithms and ways of getting the data off the CD which corresponds to different "ripping quality". However when you rip to ATRAC, I believe you get something closer to the intended 20 bits. Otherwise it wouldn't make a difference how fast you rip things (note there are different ripping qualities built into Sonic Stage). Your 15500 number indicates something that's simply not true - there is NO 15khz cutoff on real CD's.

No, it's not snake oil or perpetual motion.

[NGY]

7 hours ago, sfbp said:

The point is (I think) that CD's are really 20-bit (or so recording) dithered down to 16 bits

...

when you rip to ATRAC, I believe you get something closer to the intended 20 bits.

The original audio can be digitized at any sample rate and bit depth, like 20/48, 24/48, 24/96, 24/192, etc., once it is converted into the standard CD Red Book format, all information that is present in the higher resolution digital audio master but cannot be translated into 16 bit 44,1 khz is actually lost. Forever. No method can bring back 20 or 24 bit original digital audio from 16 bit data.

When you rip a CD, whatever the intended output format is, the ripping application first reads the data on the CD, saves it into WAV file(s), then does the actual conversion. In other words, the same WAV is the base for any further step, no matter what the output codec is. If the data on the CD has only 16 bit 44,1 khz audio, the output format, FLAC, mp3, ATRAC, etc. converted files can have that much information only, at max. None of them can reproduce the original bits and samples of the original master.

I can imagine, that when recording a CD or converting a WAV to 20 bit ATRAC format, the ATRAC codec does apply some sort of enhacements after dithering 16 bit to 20, and that it can result an audically (does such word exist?) better sound. But that 20 bit data is not identical to the original one, because it is impossible.

[sfbp]

I well remember the "ultra-sophisticated" CD players featuring 20-bit oversampling.

And I would be stunned if all CD's really cut off at 15 Khz. The theoretical limit is half the sampling frequency ie 22.05 Khz.

[NGY]

1 hour ago, sfbp said:

I well remember the "ultra-sophisticated" CD players featuring 20-bit oversampling.

That's right. But oversampling is done on the same basis of audio data: namely 16/44,1 read from the CD (or, the WAV, if ripped).

So I think we can say - distinguishing between two independent questions we touched here:

- the CD audio (if ripped properly) WAV can be converted back and forth to FLAC lossless, i.e., FLAC can return the original WAV bit by bit, without losing quality of the original, and

- the original 16/44,1 CD audio data can be enhanced in different ways, to correct/smooth/ increase quantization errors/noise/dynamic range, etc., and ATRAC as a native 20 bit format is very good at it (although, it is a lossy format on the other hand)

My view is that for lossless archiving CD audio (when file size is a matter) FLAC is 100% appropriate (again, with a proper rip), and an ATRAC encoded CD or WAV audio played on appropriate equipment can be audibly (I think this is the right word) better, than the original CD (similarly to those 20 bit oversampling CD players).

[RustyRoses]

Just to clarify, I'm following another member's workflow to atrac by applying my own 15.5khz cut before converting. 

[PhilippeC]

19 hours ago, Jimma said:

You may know this already but unfortunately SonicStage doesn't recognise FLAC files.  You will have to use something like FLAC Frontend to change them back to WAVs before importing them into SonicStage for transfer to your NH1 once you get your USB cable.

The MZ-NH1 is a fantastic bit of kit and I'm sure you'll be very happy with it.  I love mine:)

 

The WAV format does not suport metadatas. WMA lossless does and is recognized by SonicStage. As an alternative,  dBpoweramp Music Converter can be use for the convertion FLAC to WMA even after the 30 days period (10 files by 10 files) as you will not need to convert dozens of dozens of Flac files just to record or transfert music to one MD disc. 

[kalkie]

2 hours ago, PhilippeC said:

 dBpoweramp Music Converter can be use for the convertion FLAC to WMA lossless

freac (free audio converter, recent version is v 1.0.27) open source software can do this also but without restrictions, see www.freac.org.

[NGY]

6 hours ago, PhilippeC said:

The WAV format does not suport metadatas. 

In fact it does:

”As a derivative of RIFF, WAV files can be tagged with metadata in the INFO chunk. In addition, WAV files can embed any kind of metadata, including but not limited to Extensible Metadata Platform (XMP) data or ID3 tags[27] in extra chunks. Applications may not handle this extra information or may expect to see it in a particular place.” (source)

And you can even edit in Audacitiy:

(Picture taken from the net, as I am not at my computer that runs Audacity. Will replace it later)

[punkrockaddict]

Hey Rusty

On 29.12.2016 at 6:46 PM, RustyRoses said:

 I've got about 50 in total, most are Sony and Sharp with lots of the 10th Anniversary clear ones and transparent purple 80min Sharps.

Until I pick up the correct USB cable, I'll be using a TOSLink cable with 2x Mini TOSLink adaptors between my MacBook and my MZ-NH1 on Hi-SP. It's not the 352kbps version

 

would you swap some of the MD10th Discs ? I could offer you the cable you need ;-)

I would like to see a picture of the Discs if possible ?

Send me a message when you´re interested