Is Hi-MD on the way out?

[lakeuk]

Got the latest Argos catologue (major UK store) yesterday and they've reduced the number of Hi-MD models they are sellling to 3 taking up half a page of their 1500+ page catologue, compared to harddisk/flash type units which take up 5 pages. They still devote 5 pages to portable CD players.

So has Sony lost it's chance with the Hi-MD format?

[tommypeters]

With DRM they have never really had the chance.

[mmp64]

With DRM they have never really had the chance.

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Actually, it looks like Sony is re-positioning it as a tool for musicians and audiophiles, rather than a mass-market item like their flash and HDD players. In the immortal words of Spinal Tap, the audience for MD has not gotten smaller, it has just become "more selective."

[lamewing]

I also agree that the heavy DRM doesn't help, but MD was crippled (sales wise) many years ago here in the States and never really recovered. I would love to have seen a Hi-MD machine that plays mp3 AND supports drag and drop. So many folks say it is to keep the pirating down....BS....it isn't any more difficult to drop the files to a MD as files and just give them to someone else. I think the MD is still suffering from the laws that govern audio recording devices versus computer devices...which is how the iPod, etc are labeled.

[e1ghtyf1ve]

[...] I think the MD is still suffering from the laws that govern audio recording devices versus computer devices...which is how the iPod, etc are labeled.

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I believe you put your finger on it...

[The Low Volta]

just to answer the title: "no"

it's just being repositioned... first it was aimed at the "I don't really care what it sounds like, as long as I look good with it i-puddle" (just kidding, I have friends with pods and I still speak to them ) and now I personally believe they will present it as a follow-up to DAT, aimed at the pro and semi-pro recording market (smaller but richer)

so death as a simple consumer product? perhaps,but anyone still into (Hi)MD actually gets part of his/hers kicks from being different, not part of the i-puddle

death as a format? nope, not untill they design a flash/solid-state recorder which matches/tops the HiMD qualities

[e1ghtyf1ve]

just to answer the title: "no"

it's just being repositioned... first it was aimed at the "I don't really care what it sounds like, as long as I look good with it i-puddle" (just kidding, I have friends with pods and I still speak to them   ) and now I personally believe they will present it as a follow-up to DAT, aimed at the pro and semi-pro recording market (smaller but richer)

so death as a simple consumer product? perhaps,but anyone still into (Hi)MD actually gets part of his/hers kicks from being different, not part of the i-puddle

death as a format? nope, not untill they design a flash/solid-state recorder which matches/tops the HiMD qualities

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My thoughts as well. I'm transitioning from portable DAT myself and I'm really enjoying random access etc. It's surprising to me that these little decks were ever thought to be marketed to the average US consumer, but... nah, I'll shut up now.

Cheers

[Matty]

Well, I was in the Sony Store here in Winnipeg, Canada and the salesman noticed i had my RH910 with me (it's never far from my side) and he was surprised that I'd already got one as he told me that there were people waiting for several months with units on backorder. Apparantly, they're quite hot sellers here. Even with no little to no adverts Sony seems to be holding it's own in the marketplace.

[Surov]

At least in Singapore, it's already out. Went to a Sony Gallery and inquired for a Hi MD unit and the salesperson remarked, "I don't think we carry that tape player" and when I pointed at the Hi-MD units, he remarked, "Oh those..." In Singapore, creative, apple and i-river have totally erased traces of Hi-MD here.

[hobgoblin]

death as a format? nope, not untill they design a flash/solid-state recorder which matches/tops the HiMD qualities

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most of them should be matched by a 1GB flash card, only one thats not matched is the cost.

for the cost of one of those cards you should be able to get atleast 10-20 himd discs

[t0fler]

if they are gonna mark it more as a pro semi pro thing, where are all the decks and recording equipment.

it would be a shame if they do choose to go down that path, as many of the walkman units may dissapear and the ones that stay might get their prices jacked up.

like what happened in australia the prices were ridiculous, sony wanted $300 , thats 227 US$ for an NH600, this was when you could buy an RH910 for $200 American and now you can't even buy a himd minidisc in australia.

hopefully this wont happen in general to the format

[Sparky191]

j....

death as a format? nope, not untill they design a flash/solid-state recorder which matches/tops the HiMD qualities

What are the "qualities" you are talking about?

[1kyle]

What are the "qualities" you are talking about?

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Pro and semi-pro gear doesn't appear in normal consumer outlets anyway -- for example how many times can someone go to a camera / electronics store and pick up any of the following (professional photography) items

1) A Canon 1D2 or 1Ds2 camera

2) A 70-200 2.8 'L' IS Lens.

3) A 300 MM 2.8 'L' IS lens.

The fact that this stuff isn't on sale in "Consumer Stores" doesn't mean 'It's on the Way out'. Far from it -- Photography has never been more in demand.

MD is also much too useful a format to let it die out -- OK let the kids play with their Ipods etc etc but fashions change whereas top range Pro stuff always is in demand.

The market is most definitely NOT dead. (Maybe smaller and more discerning and also more profitable).

Cheers

-K

Edited August 1, 2005 by 1kyle

[The Low Volta]

What are the "qualities" you are talking about?

PCM (16/44.1) recording, pretty decent mic preamp (yes I know, ppl are always complaining about it, but in a test, an external cheapish preamp like the boostbox wasn't significantly better), small size (good for stealth), ease of use (if you take the time to learn a bit before you start goofin' around and ruin a recording ), relatively cheap, good battery life, decent capacity (1gb and when switching discs almost unlimited space seems quite good for me), since SS3.2 unlimited uploads, very good support forum ,...

[MDGB2]

I think all these statements about Hi-MD being 'on the way out' or going "professional only" laughable.

So Sony have introduced two models for use on a Mac - that's good news not bad. One of the reasons they maybe 'upload only' could just be software issues (PC and MAC ain't the same....). Bear in mind also that these units were not released with the rest of Gen2, so may be a bit of a 'rush job.'

At the end of the day, this format (Hi-MD) is still in it's infancy. Remember that original MD only really became popular (outside Japan) in the mid-late 90s a few years after it was first released, when the prices of units dropped and better codecs (atrac 4.5 etc.) and features significantly improved quality.

Just chill!

Edited August 1, 2005 by MDGB2

[e1ghtyf1ve]

I'm very fortunate to own and borrow some of the most expensive recording equipment (many $1000s, I have friends in high places) to compare Hi-MD to and I must say the 2nd gen machines can hold their own quite nicely. My flash recorders and those others I've tested with such high hopes just aren't there yet. Maybe if the mp3 crowd suddenly sprouted some "golden ears" this will happen sooner...

Here in Seattle at least, RH-(9)10s are really hard to get (brick and mortar) due to Fry's and Magnolia Audio Video being constantly sold out. I guess I got lucky . The local Radio Shack kept their promise and are restocking their media shelf with pretty blue Hi-MD blanks. The sales guy knew what they were, too.

Cheers

[Sparky191]

PCM (16/44.1) recording, pretty decent mic preamp (yes I know, ppl are always complaining about it, but in a test, an external cheapish preamp like the boostbox wasn't significantly better), small size (good for stealth), ease of use (if you take the time to learn a bit before you start goofin' around and ruin a recording   ), relatively cheap, good battery life, decent capacity (1gb and when switching discs almost unlimited space seems quite good for me), since SS3.2 unlimited uploads, very good support forum   ,...

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Theres quite a few MP3 flash players that are 1G can take a AA battery and can record to wav. Dunno about the mic preamp.

[The Low Volta]

Theres quite a few MP3 flash players that are 1G can take a AA battery and can record to wav. Dunno about the mic preamp.

flash based quality wav recording with decent batery life...and still affordable? which ones? not to bug you...but I'm just not very knowledgable about flash, I just thought it would already have popped up around here if there really was any competition for HiMD at the moment (and the closest I've seen was this but then almost everyone agreed that it looked promising for the future, but wasn't yet up to standards...mainly because of expensive media and short battery life on a proprietary battery)

[Sparky191]

flash based quality wav recording with decent batery life...and still affordable? which ones? not to bug you...but I'm just not very knowledgable about flash, I just thought it would already have popped up around here if there really was any competition for HiMD at the moment (and the closest I've seen was this but then almost everyone agreed that it looked promising for the future, but wasn't yet up to standards...mainly because of expensive media and short battery life on a proprietary battery)

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Actually you are right. Theres nothing esle with all those features,There areHD units like a Creative Jukebox or a iRiver H1xx which do WAV recording. But I had assumed all the flash players could record a WAV but nearly all of them record in low bitrates and only to MP3. I did find this, but its not a general purpose player though.

http://www.jakeludington.com/gadget_envy/2...3_recorder.html

So I was wrong...

Edited August 1, 2005 by Sparky191

[Meryl Arbing]

Reading the posting here got me really worried! I can see that sales figures are indicators that certain things are on the way out. We see that there are a lot more mp3 players manufactured and sold than Hi-MD players. So, it must be a inferior format to mp3 because mp3 sells more.

I guess this rule applies to other things as well.

I used to enjoy an nice, thick, marinated steak cooked over a charcoal fire but, yesterday, I made the mistake of drving by a McDonald's restaurant and they had a huge sign out in front that said "25 Billion Sold" so I guess that's it! I have decided to sell my barbeque because, hey...what's the point? Mc-burgers are obviously the wave of the future and we old dinosaurs with our 1" thick...suculent...juicy...charcoal broiled steaks just have to 'get with the program'...I mean anything that sells 25 BILLION must be great..right?

Thanks for opening my eyes to the truth that sales figures are the TRUE measure of quality and it doesn't mean that there are simply millions of people with no taste or judgement or any clue as to what is good or bad.

Edited August 1, 2005 by Meryl Arbing

[tommypeters]

Reading the posting here got me really worried!  I can see that sales figures are indicators that certain things are on the way out. We see that there are a lot more mp3 players manufactured and sold than Hi-MD players. So, it must be a inferior format to mp3 because mp3 sells more.

I guess this rule applies to other things as well.

I used to enjoy an nice, thick, marinated steak cooked over a charcoal fire but, yesterday, I made the mistake of drving by a McDonald's restaurant and they had a huge sign out in front that said "25 Billion Sold" so I guess that's it!    I have decided to sell my barbeque because, hey...what's the point?  Mc-burgers are obviously the wave of the future and we old dinosaurs with our 1" thick...suculent...juicy...charcoal broiled steaks just have to 'get with the program'...I mean anything that sells 25 BILLION must be great..right? 

Thanks for opening my eyes to the truth that sales figures are the TRUE measure of quality and it doesn't mean that there are simply millions of people with no taste or judgement or any clue as to what is good or bad.

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The question that started the thread wasn't "Is Hi-MD quality detoriating" but rather " Is Hi-MD on the way out?"...

[MDGB2]

The question that started the thread wasn't "Is Hi-MD quality detoriating" but rather " Is Hi-MD on the way out?"...

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Which it isn't, not by a long way...

[veezhun]

PCM (16/44.1) recording, pretty decent mic preamp (yes I know, ppl are always complaining about it, but in a test, an external cheapish preamp like the boostbox wasn't significantly better), small size (good for stealth), ease of use (if you take the time to learn a bit before you start goofin' around and ruin a recording   ), relatively cheap, good battery life, decent capacity (1gb and when switching discs almost unlimited space seems quite good for me), since SS3.2 unlimited uploads, very good support forum   ,...

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sooperbly put.. i couldnt agree more.. HI MD is a recorder primarily and inspite of that, the playback is excellent..to find such a wonderful recorder with dirt cheap re-recordable media is a huge relief for people like me...

i havent tried ss3.2 and am going to do just that tomorrow morning..

hi md is here to stay and maybe the 3rd gen will come out with something even more fantastic.. better bit rates for recording.. 2GB discs.. optical out..

[tommypeters]

Here in Sweden the shops that before stocked ten different models from Sony and Sharp, now have one or maybe two models. Those who had a few models before now don't sell them at all. The NH600 initially cost 2800SEK, last week it was 495SEK.

According to a research company almost 550,000 MP3 players were sold in Seden during 2004, 75,000 of the HD based. In 2005 that will be over 700,000. MiniDisc no longer has a category in there.

I think that MD will go down to a pretty stable level and can stay there almost forever, but I'm not sure Sony is going to continue with MD if it's going to be like that. It might give them a bad image, and Sony anyway sell both flash and HD players so they are competing with themselves...

[veezhun]

disagree all you want but i would not call a HI MD recorder an Mp3 player... in fact, i would have been surprised if MD was included in a research of MP3 players

[m15a]

I did find this, but its not a general purpose player though.

http://www.jakeludington.com/gadget_envy/2...3_recorder.html

here's another: http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MicroTrack-main.html

still, price isn't really the same . .

[saaron]

MD probably would have been more successful in the US and Europe if it had been pitched as a replacement for analogue cassette and the emphasis had been placed on the radical editing technology which is quite amazing for a consumer device. As it was MD was debuted with blank and pre-recorded media and seemed to be getting pitched as an alternative or replacement for CD.

I think they also would have helped themselved by not charging for licensing the technology and just put the specs out there and let companies make portables and decks like Philips did with audio cassette.

Having said all that I think there's definitely a pro-niche there. Someday flash technology may be mature enough to provide an alternative, but it's not quite there yet in price or features, and I think MDs been around long enough that we're not in danger of running out of kit. We just have to hope that Sony opens the format if and when they do stop producing hardware.

I also don't understand why people automatically compare Hi-MD to HD and flash-based portable music players like the iPod. Hi-MD is not intended to carry around your entire music collection and it's recording capabilities are paramount. There seems to be this bizarre notion that because the iPod is objectively more useful for transferring music downloaded off of a computer that this makes MD obsolete when it has much greater functionality than that.

[tommypeters]

Well, Sony here in Sweden (the company with secret email addresses) today sent me a plug for the fantastic new program SonicStage 3.1... Not 3.2, but this was the first mention of anything newer than 2.0

On their web site, the only Hi-MD there is NH600... (the only other MD is the MZ-520 - "with the new software SonicStage 2.0"...)

That about says how much Sony cares here.

[Roamer]

Same on the norvegian and danish site (there used to be more models available), when the RH10 and RH910 are available in the Netherland ...

Looks like they don't care much about Scandinavia ...

[atrain]

luckily sonicstage is an international program.

[tommypeters]

Yes, and luckily SS3.2 is much better than the old versions.

[Christopher]

A thousand or so registrations here at the forums a week tells me the format is far from dying.

[MZ-1]

I don't think the format is dying either. However, I do find it almost impossible to find the Hi-MD blanks for sale, locally. Players, no problem, discs -- where are they?

Paul

[ZosoIV]

Hi-MD certainly is not on its way out, considering some of us old-timers who aren't even on our way "in" yet. Sure, I'd love a snazzy new NH1, but the cost of a new player, plus the scarcity of 1GB blanks, isn't reason enough for me to bite. For now, my N10 (and my HDD player) serves my needs quite well, though 36 hours of voice recording on a single disc WOULD be nice. Maybe in a year or so....

[jonny mac]

I would certainly say that HiMD looks to be on the way out but how long that'll take is another question. I have seen very few HiMD players, I see quite a few older MD players down at the gym. I myself have made my choice and will stick with HiMD until the units I have no longer function and maybe by then there will be no replacements, maybe there will be - who knows? Hopefully we won't be abandoned and the dropping of compulsory DRM for ATRAC is a big step in the right direction. The ever decreasing size of the MD range available is statement to it's declining nature. I'm sure MD won't last too much longer unless there are radical changes but I can get by with the equipment I have for now. When I have to make a change I'll weigh up the options at the time

[The Low Volta]

after a bunch of (well informed) hints about a third gen and higher capacity (>1gb) discs... I don't think it is logical to talk about the imminent demise of the format itself at the moment...

whether you and other consumers will choose to use HiMD, that's another question... but I for one will keep using my NH900 till it dies and hope to move on to a third (or if I treat my NH900 nice perhaps a fourth or fifth) gen of HiMD!

untill there really is an alternative, I do not believe HiMD can die...

[g52ultra]

they could get some of the IPOD/Zen Micro market if Sony had packaged and markets them right.

1. Kill the Walkman branding. People still think of casette players when they hear that word and it's synonomous with $9 Walmart products.

2. Package the best features of the RH10, MZ-NH1 and the MZNH900 into one package. The beauty of the MZ1 in its aluminum, OLED of the RH10, and the standard USB mini cable and power supply (you NH1 users know what I'm talking about) jack of the MZNH900 that doesn't require a cradle.

3. USB charging. "USB powered" does not mean "USB charging"

Sony MO technology has been around years longer than HiMD. Been around longer than IPOD. Was around longer than even the very first "IPOD"- the Creative Labs Nomad.

The most beautiful product they made was MZR-900. They missed the mark with overpricing the MZNH1 and crippling it with that horrible charging cradle. Apple has the ability to manufacture an aluminum IPOD mini and sell it for $179-199?!You can't tell me that Sony,a much larger company than Apple can't match this?

Where were they 5 years ago with MO technology when Creative Lab Nomad players and Iomega Zip Drives ruled? Oh, thats right.. they were overpriced back then!

It took Sony 10 years to match the capability of their own MO drives to Minidisc? Hardly not. The technology was there all along- they invented it! I find it interesting that Sony unveiled HiMD when perhaps they finally realized that the MO storage market collapsed

But Sony makes a lot of money in publishing music, too. Perhaps their interest is not in making a more versatile player/recorder like the competition does (they have their own genuine interest in the phrase "copywrite infringment").

Sony is at odds with themselves. Because of that, they are at odds with the consumer market. Unlike the past, where a few other manufacturers jumped onto MD, this time it's not gonna happen.

Crutchfield used to be a big supporter of MD. They were one of the biggest supporters in pushing MD in the US market. Check out their website now regarding HiMD. They rave about HiMD, but they will only sell the discs and no players! That in itself is an alarm.

It's all about Hard drive and flash card based music players now. IPOD had nothing to do with it- Creative Labs had been doing it years before anybody even heard of the "I" word. It's just cheaper to build pocket music players that way. All the stuff is over the counter non proprietary stuff- labtop drives, microdrives, flash cards- it's all standardized across the border stuff that ALL manufacturers have accepted. Supply and Demand, folks. The market is saturated with this stuff. You can build em cheap. You don't have to buy expensive licensing from one group that holds the patent. And those parts ain't cheap either, because the industry is not embracing it. It's not in anybodies best financial interests to embrace HiMD.

That's why Sony needs to push HiMD as an alternative to IPOD and Zen Micro. They have to do that by packaging all the great things they make into one (or several) products and market it as such (the nice aluminum of the MZ-NH1, OLED display, USB charging capability and unlimited I/O in digital and analog). Then HiMD stands up to those products.

Afterall isn't that why we like HiMD?

If Sony doesn't change the packaging and marketing approach to HiMD, then we all bought Studebakers, my friends.

Edited August 19, 2005 by g52ultra

[The Low Volta]

@ g52ultra:

I actually like reading your thoughts... but please for the sake of not further confusing this tired MDCF-member , distinguish clearly between the MZ1 and MZ-NH1 ... thanks

and btw the MZ-NH1 is made out of magnesium I believe

[g52ultra]

@ g52ultra:

I actually like reading your thoughts... but please for the sake of not further confusing    this tired MDCF-member  , distinguish clearly between the MZ1 and MZ-NH1 ... thanks

and btw the MZ-NH1 is made out of magnesium I believe

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sorry man, i just abbrieviated NH1.. yeah magnesium

[Christopher]

3. USB charging. "USB powered" does not mean "USB charging"

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Real USB charging is standard on second generation units, like the MZ-RH10..