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NEW: SonicStage 3.3 Now Available!

Richard

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mmp64 Newbie

mmp64

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Posted (edited)

I'm afraid I've had nothing but problems since I installed this version - problems I've never had w/ any previous version of SS. Out of 5-7 attempted transfers (HiSP "as-is") - only two have worked - the rest have locked up and I've had to bring down SS w/ CTRL+ALT+DEL. I've tried two different units, and several different disks, as well as reinstalling. So beware.

EDIT - It may be limited to the Dynamic Playlist function...

Edited by mmp64
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Syrius Newbie

Syrius

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Posted

352kbps is playable on my NH-9OO, RH-10 and Onkyo MD105FX deck!

Very strange that 320kbps is not????!!!

If true lossless was playable , it would be perfect...voodoo??

This could be good news for the format. If Sony makes and releases the 3rd gen with Atrac Lossless compatibility, we'll be in heaven. ^_^

Now I don't need MP3. We were clamoring for True SP with HI-MD, and now Sony gave us something even better. Thank you, Mr. Stringer and whoever came up with the idea.

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Ishiyoshi Newbie

Ishiyoshi

Posted
Posted

why can't we rip in the new Atrac 352/4-whatever bitrate?

sucks that its transfer as only

Please note: According to Sony, to maintain compatibility with previous devices, that AAL was built with ATRAC3 and ATRAC3plus as a base. Hence, AAL can only encode in bit rates based upon selected ATRAC3 (132kbps) and ATRAC3plus (256kbps, 128kbps and 64kbps).

*the above information was derived from SonicStage 3.3's Help archive and its "CD Import" Settings

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tommypeters Newbie

tommypeters

Posted
Posted

I wonder if Atrac3plus 352kbps was originally engineered into the units and just never released externally for whatever reason.

I guess the difference in sound quality is much smaller than in bitrate/storage cost. If people think "Doesn't 352k sound better than this?" Hi'MD could get a reputation for inferior sound, but now - at a "Make or Break" situation for MD - they give the customers all options and let them (us) decide.

Another notable point: Sony finally listened. You can now select the coding quality during import.

Set it to high. CD-Import takes noticeably longer, but especially the lower datarates profit here.

So, remember to select 'High' on the recording quality, it is well worth the wait.

Soundwise, I can recommend to upgrade.

Nice. So a "new" 256kbps Hi-SP could sound discernably better than when imported at "standard" quality? Maybe on more complicated music, music with certain frequencies - the music for which I have used PCM instead of Hi-SP. It has felt a bit too little extra sound quality for the extra space used by PCM, now maybe I can go from 80% to 100% Hi-SP. Or some 352kbps, if it will sound any better.

I will wake up another computer and install SS3.3 on, I've had so much trouble with these programs I won't take any chances with my working SS3.2...

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MDGB2 Newbie

MDGB2

Posted
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If only you could get it in Simple Burner..... :rolleyes:

Disc in, transfer on the fly to any bitrate, job done.

No albums cluttering up mi hard drive.

:D

Edited by MDGB2
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Kaledi Newbie

Kaledi

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Posted

A few words from this side of the ocean.

Atrac Advanced Lossless actually stores the music twice.

First really lossless, then in parallel in the datarate you have selected before ripping.

When transferring onto MD, only the lossy part is transferred.

If you selected 64k at import, then Hi-LP@64k ends up on the disc.

The bad thing: When forcing SonicStage to convert such a lossless file during transfer, only the lossy part is converted.

Tried it with one tagged at 64k and converted it to 352k - still sounds like 64k on the MD.

But sounds CD-Like, when played from the HDD.

So, if you want to make full use of the 352k of your HiMD, import to PCM, then convert to 352k during transfer.

However, I'm still wondering, why Sony didn't went the whole way and offers the 352k on import as well.

(Maybe on SS 3.4?)

Another notable point: Sony finally listened. You can now select the coding quality during import.

Set it to high. CD-Import takes noticeably longer, but especially the lower datarates profit here.

So, remember to select 'High' on the recording quality, it is well worth the wait.

Soundwise, I can recommend to upgrade.

Tried WMA just for fun too, it can't compete. But as we all know, Microsoft can't compete on technical merits...

352k works on the european NH700 as well.

This is bad news. What on earth is the point of using the compressed part of the music file to do any transcoding? Presumably, creating Audio CDs will also make use of the compressed part of the file?

I'm still rather confused by the implementation of the lossless format and the 'compatibility' with older equipment. This is why

1. File sizes are indeed different depending on the 'bitrate' you rip a CD using the lossless codec. However, (and forgive me if others have noticed otherwise), the difference in file size between a 256kps ripped 4min track and the same track ripped at 64kps is only 2mb; you would expect a bigger difference ripping at equivalent compressed bit rates?

2. Though there does not appear to be any (or very little) encoding carried out when transferring a 'lossless' file to Hi-MD at the optimised bit rate: e.g. 132kps lossless transferred to HiMD at 132kps Atrac3, an optimised file is still created and is left in the optimised folder after transfer (assuming the options are set up so that converted tracks are not deleted). This would suggest that SS is manipulating the lossless file in some way?

3. Converting a lossless file at one bit rate to a compressed file at another bit rate, e.g. 256kps lossless to 132kps compressed, does not appear to take anywhere near as long as any interconversion between compressed bit rates. I have to admit that I have not scientifically tested this timing yet but it would point to SS using additional information to the compressed part of the file to help it transcode?

4. Does 1 & 2 suggest that within the lossless file structure there is additional information encoded into it that speeds up any transcoding?

5. Finally, I don't understand the compatibility issue cited for delivering different 'bitrates' for the lossles format. Afterall, no device is currently directly compatible with the lossless file so it makes no difference what bitrate, or indeed for that matter codec, is used to rip a CD; SS will still convert the music file into a format the music device will recognise. This is what hapenns if you currently rip a CD at 320kps and then transfer to HiMD!

I'm intrigued to learn about the technical implementation of the lossless format!

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ozpeter Newbie

ozpeter

Posted
Posted

Having read through this thread without having downloaded the new version I find myself seriously confused, but bits of it do rather sound like wavpack lossless/lossy "hybrid" compression.

" The hybrid mode provides all the advantages of lossless compression with an additional bonus. Instead of creating a single file, this mode creates both a relatively small, high-quality lossy file that can be used all by itself, and a "correction" file that (when combined with the lossy file) provides full lossless restoration. For some users this means never having to choose between lossless and lossy compression!" - quote about wavpack, not any form of Atrac, from the wavpack site www.wavpack.com

Am I thinking along the right lines here?

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garcou Newbie

garcou

Posted
Posted

Tried WMA just for fun too, it can't compete. But as we all know, Microsoft can't compete on technical merits...

352k works on the european NH700 as well.

lossy wma ok, but wma lossless is more efficient than atrac lossless (saves more space)

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garcou Newbie

garcou

Posted
Posted (edited)

Has anyone calculated how long 352kbps recording on standard 80min md ?

pcm(1411kbps) = 28 min

1400/352 = 3.98 so atrac(352kbps) = 3.98 x 28 = 111 min[ (didn't test effective)

or : 291MB = 291000 x 8 = 2328000 kb so atrac(352kbps) = 2328000/352/60= 110 min

At this point I have recalculated recording time for Hi-LP and Hi-SP and here is what I found:

Hi-Lp ( 64 kbps) = 1400/64x28 = 613 min = 10 h 13 min (effective 10h15min)

or : Hi-Lp ( 64 kbps) = 2328000/64/60 = 606 min = 10 h 6 min

Hi-Sp (256 kbps) = 1400/256x28 = 153 min = 2 h 33 min (effective 2h23min)

or : Hi-Lp ( 64 kbps) = 2328000/256/60 = 152 min = 2 h 32 min

My calculation for Hi-Lp is around effective time recording, but It lacks 10 min in Hi-Sp mode!

Can anyone tell me if I made an error ?

Edited by garcou
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theblueraja Newbie

theblueraja

Posted
Posted

In the CD Importing window, if you select 132kbps(ATRAC3) as import format, you can't choose High or Nomal (Faster) recording quality... I wonder why

Yeah I noticed that too... but someone covered the high vs normal in this thread earlier...

My problem is I don't want to HEAR these higher bitrates... because if I do, I'll want to REDO all my MDs, and that's more than 100 discs!!! Plus they would then spread out to even MORE discs because the higher rates would take up more ROOM, and I have like 4 albums per standard MD... let's not even talk about how many albums I have on my HI-MD discs!!! (all at 132kbps).

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LJM Newbie

LJM

Posted
Posted

In the CD Importing window, if you select 132kbps(ATRAC3) as import format, you can't choose High or Nomal (Faster) recording quality... I wonder why

My best guess would be because it is only ATRAC3, and not ATRAC3+.

I'll download the new version once I've managed to backup my library.

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indeego Newbie

indeego

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Posted (edited)

AV-Watch now provides more information

ATRAC Advanced Lossless (from Babelfish-Translation)

According to SONY, AAL while to designate ATRAC3plus as basic layer, has loss less encoding in extended layer, adopting scalable structure. The AAL file while compressing in approximately 30 - 80% capacity usual music CD (linear PCM 1,411kbps) with in comparison, it has become the loss less compressed type which it can reproduce to field sound completely.

In addition, because basic layer is designated as ATRAC3plus, only the basic layer of ATRAC3plus can be transferred when utilizing with the portable audio player et. al.. Because of that, utilizing with the personal computer AAL as a treble quality data of the music CD taking in and music transmission. ATRAC3plus, with also the proper use which was said becomes possible when transferring to the portable player et. al. whose capacity is small.

In addition, a picture of AAL integration is provided. (See, Hi-MD is on the list ;))

Sony's Explanation of AAL (Babelfish)

Edited by indeego
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theblueraja Newbie

theblueraja

Posted
Posted

Okay this is gonna sound stupid but what is the real difference between SS3.2 and SS3.3.Is there any real benefit to trying to get SS3.3 if one already has SS3.2.

That question doesn't sound stupid to me at all, most likely because I have been contemplating over the very same issue... however, out of habit, I know being up-to-date with the latest is usually best, despite the risk of early bugs, etc. I downloaded 3.3, was excited about the whole "lossless" thing, but then found out that there's really no difference if I plan to use SS just for making MDs, versus using it as a PLAYER on my PC, so I could just go BACK to 3.2, but I'll just stick to 3.3 since it's... the "latest."

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The Low Volta Newbie

The Low Volta

Posted
Posted (edited)

well, not necessarily true blue... I rip my cd's with EAC onto a 250gb external HD, so it doesn't really matter to me to rip 'em to wav... with 3.3 I can transfer these ripped CD's as 352kbps (which is evn closer to CD than 256 obviously and practically indistinguishable from the source)

so there is a bonus even for creating MD's... a gained bitrate, now if only we could directly record into 352 from analogue in :lol:

Edited by The Low Volta
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theblueraja Newbie

theblueraja

Posted
Posted

well, not necessarily true blue... I rip my cd's with EAC onto a 250gb external HD, so it doesn't really matter to me to rip 'em to wav... with 3.3 I can transfer these ripped CD's as 352kbps (which is evn closer to CD than 256 obviously and practically indistinguishable from the source)

so there is a bonus even for creating MD's... a gained bitrate, now if only we could directly record into 352 from analogue in :lol:

Oh, well I simply meant if I stay at the same 132kbps bitrate which I always use.

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scootaboy Newbie

scootaboy

Posted
Posted (edited)

Anyone found out if in 3.3 you can reorder groups on the ATRAC device (right-hand panel) by clicking on artist, album etc?

My biggest gripe with Sonicstage is that groups are only listed in the order they were transfered. Whenever I transfer albums piecemeal to the device, I have to scroll through every group to see if it's already on the device. My memory sucks, I know. Seems like this simple functionality is long overdue.

Edited by scootaboy
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tekdroid Newbie

tekdroid

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Posted (edited)

is there an offline version of SonicStage3.3 to download?

my computer dousen't have a internet connection!

:)

Are you feeling a bit geekish? If not, stop reading :)

(I will not be responsible for any damage and blah blah blah)

If you don't mind some manual work after getting your files downloaded, like:

*extracting the zip files

*opening up a command prompt and typing some stuff (for just some of the files - some of them you can just double click)

...then read on :)

There's a very easy way to get all files and keep them so you never have to download them again.

If you're so inclined, look here:

http://www.aii.co.jp/contents/sonic/_data/...DlFileSetup.ini

That is the setup file for the web installer for SonicStage 3.3, showing all download locations for all files and the order in which they are installed from the web installer. Any special command switches are listed next to execution = . Most files can be double clicked, though (those without any special / following their file names)

Each file is listed under headings in this ini file (along with a lot of other info underneath it). The first 4 headings and their meanings:

Msi MSI installer

Dx DirectX 9.0c

Wmf Windows Media Format 9 Series Runtime Setup

Mdac Microsoft Data Access Component

They files are normally found on Windows systems but you can install them again just in case you don't have them (or don't know if you do). The web installer automatically determines if you have these or not and only starts downloading the Microsoft files you need.

After that comes the Sony files:

MSC which is the Music Server Controller

...and so on, all the way down the list.

You normally only need to download the actual Sony zip files (the ones from the MSC heading onwards) but it doesn't hurt to get them all and install them again just to be sure your system has them. Alternatively, if curious about what your system actually needs, you can just start the web installer to begin installing, and the file it starts downloading from will tell you which files you need to start downloading from. Then you can cancel the web installer and get your files manually.

Anyway, going down the list we see more:

SsSetup is the actual SonicStage 3.3

SsAddon is the CDDB/Connect component add-on for SonicStage

For SsSetup and SsAddon, just download your specific language.

You'll notice in each section there's an execution = line.

If there are additional switches after the exe file here, you'll need to open up a command window and go to the directory you extracted the zip file to and execute the file with those switches listed in the ini file. At least that's what I did to be certain things would work fine.

The result

I installed SonicStage 3.3 on Windows 2000 and Windows XP without any troubles - without the annoying web installer and without downloading twice.

Both installs were clean installs after cleaning up all traces of SonicStage 3.2 listed in the FAQ here:

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=8071

Again, you do everything at your own risk and blah blah blah. If you're reasonably confident around the computer, it's a no-risk operation and it frees you from the web installer (and allows you to install easily on multiple computers).

Have fun!

(and just say no to web installers)

Edited by tekdroid
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ROMBUSTERS Newbie

ROMBUSTERS

Posted
Posted

In my personal test (which were not extensive at beyond a couple hurried minutes this morning) there seems to be no difference in quality between the AAL tracks (each encoded with the different bit rates) burned to a CD. This would mean that when burning an audio CD the original WAV/PCM quality is preserved.

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