"Why Sony Should've Put Its Weight Behind Hi-MD"

[streaml1ne]

Osnews has an interesting article about the slow success of Hi-MD worldwide (Full article). "Currently, .mp3 players are all the hype. Everyone has one, and if you don't, you're old-fashioned. I do not have an .mp3 player. I tried to have one, but for various reasons it did not please me. I'm a MiniDisc guy. I've always been. MiniDisc has some serious advantages over .mp3 players, whether they be flash or HDD based."

[RobA]

Great and oh so true.

[danielbb90]

Yeh, I agree!

Sad to think Hi-MD will fade

Sony just need to get the adds out!

[jaylen]

Thanks for the good read.

If you can't win from Apple on Apple's turf-- then try to beat them on your own turf.

Let's go, Sony, let's go. *clap clap*

I sure hope there's more to come after the RH1.

[pata2001]

Now that we have many articles and opinions about what/how Sony should have done, have we ever heard any response from Sony? (except for releasing the dream machine RH1). If Sony now open up MD/HiMD's DRM, but only release 1 new unit, I wonder if they are actually withdrawing out from MD/HiMD.

[chico75pi]

I'd like this article to be posted as comment on all those stupid reviews against the new unit...

[hobgoblin]

check some of the comments to that one...

one of the most used ones is a 2004 test of atrac vs other codecs...

[streaml1ne]

check some of the comments to that one...

one of the most used ones is a 2004 test of atrac vs other codecs...

Ah yes, the test where all the other codecs used VBR with an average bitrate near 130k whereas Atrac3 was CBR 132k. Because that's an accurate test...

[petertkalec]

I think 130k VBR compared to Atrac 132 is fair... the best MP3 can do at a given file size vs the best Atrac can do at a similar file size. Or did I miss your point?

[e1ghtyf1ve]

I think 130k VBR compared to Atrac 132 is fair... the best MP3 can do at a given file size vs the best Atrac can do at a similar file size. Or did I miss your point?

Fair yes, relevant - not really anymore. ATRAC3 (some feel it was the worst ever) had been superceded by ATRAC3+ (some think it's one of the best) just after that "test." After reading through a few discussions on Hydrogen Audio I've come to the personal conclusion that all too often quality takes a back seat to politics when it comes to subjective listening tests. HA seems to have a vested interest in LAME MP3 encoding anyway, so I have no good reason to trust them. Yes, I use LAME almost daily for converting PCM into MP3 and it probably is the best tool out there. But MP3 has reached it's potential long ago. For an excellent example of the public misconceptions about MD and blind hatred of Sony in general, take a look at:

Slashdot discussion on this topic

Sony's slow 20-year takeover by US Hollywood lawyers had predictable, sad results (CD rootkit, anyone?). I hope Sony Japan wakes up, sheds the pork, and starts innovating again. But that's as likely as hell freezing over or "content provider" lawsuits going away.

Just my $.02

[Stuge]

If anyone is interested in reading that test by Sony .then see here

Proof that ATRAC is better than WMA & Mp3

[e1ghtyf1ve]

If anyone is interested in reading that test by Sony .then see here

Proof that ATRAC is better than WMA & Mp3

Many thanks for the link. But I wouldn't trust a Sony test over a Hydrogen Audio test either, for a reason: Vested Interest.

I let my own ears be the judge. Your ears may judge differently.

Objectively, there is no doubt in my mind that in the realm of analog(ue) audio circuitry, Sony is (was) one of the best (along with Sharp et al) when it comes to music reproduction. Notice that I say analog since these stages have a large impact on sound quality, larger perhaps than the digital components and compression schemes/software used. Much of the public apparently struggles to grasp this concept. Then again, why should they bother? They care so much more about convenience of carrying around their entire collection than in pure quality of reproduction.

[Deanage]

Fair yes, relevant - not really anymore. ATRAC3 (some feel it was the worst ever) had been superceded by ATRAC3+ (some think it's one of the best) just after that "test." After reading through a few discussions on Hydrogen Audio I've come to the personal conclusion that all too often quality takes a back seat to politics when it comes to subjective listening tests. HA seems to have a vested interest in LAME MP3 encoding anyway, so I have no good reason to trust them. Yes, I use LAME almost daily for converting PCM into MP3 and it probably is the best tool out there. But MP3 has reached it's potential long ago. For an excellent example of the public misconceptions about MD and blind hatred of Sony in general, take a look at:

Slashdot discussion on this topic

Sony's slow 20-year takeover by US Hollywood lawyers had predictable, sad results (CD rootkit, anyone?). I hope Sony Japan wakes up, sheds the pork, and starts innovating again. But that's as likely as hell freezing over or "content provider" lawsuits going away.

Just my $.02

Wow. there's a lot of (justified) abuse towards SS in that article. I wonder if any of those posters realise that you don't have to use SS, or a computer, to use MD...

[chico75pi]

I only use SS for the uploading process...

[e1ghtyf1ve]

Wow. there's a lot of (justified) abuse towards SS in that article. I wonder if any of those posters realise that you don't have to use SS, or a computer, to use MD...

It was justified for older versions of SS perhaps, but as one who uses iTunes 6.0.4.2 and SS 3.4 side-by-side for many weeks now, I can no longer say that it is justified. Of course, it helps to have a recent technology (=fast) computer as well

What I think is more striking about these public forums is that there is little to no discussion about sound quality. We're talking about sound recording and reproducing equipment here - SQ should be front and center! For the masses, convenience is instead the leading purchase factor.

Here's a question: If Hi-MD had taken over the (player) market instead of the iPod, do you honestly believe we would be able to do digital DRM-free uploads today?

[hobgoblin]

Here's a question: If Hi-MD had taken over the (player) market instead of the iPod, do you honestly believe we would be able to do digital DRM-free uploads today?

a very valid question, and i would say no. atleast not from a home player device. but we would probably see studio devices that could ignore the DRM settings...

[MZ-1]

From the article:

"Now, it's all too late. I'm afraid MiniDisc will slowly but surely die out-- and that will leave me and all of MD's die-hard fans who supported the platform since day one without portable music. "

I don't think so. I'm building a HiMD library (on HiMD)of essential music that should last for many years should noting better ever come along.

MD units are mostly recorders and the discs can be re-recorded a million times (in theory). No problem there. As long as one has CD's or a pool (SonicStage) to draw from, discs can be reused. To me, the threat is that, someday, SonicStage will be incompatible with the operating system de jour, leaving real-time analog/digital recording - and no accessible library. Might want to keep a legacy OS that can run SonicStage.

Paul

[ksandbergfl]

One of the issues I don't see discussed often enough is -- MD historically was never considered a serious audio recording tool, because Sony never allowed true "hi fidelity" PCM stereo recording.

I am a musician, and in the late 80's/early 90's, having a digital recorder was considered the "holy grail". MD failed on this point because its best resolution was compressed, lossy 256Kbps ATRAC, with a well-documented hi-frequency shelf of about 17KHz. Musicians,studios, and serious hi-fi aficionados instead adopted DAT and ADAT (an 8-track DAT recorder that used standard VHS video tapes), which recorded music in the same format as CD's (44.1KHz sampling, stereo, 16-bit PCM). Then, when recordable CD's and HD recorders came around, people moved to that platform. MD was left behind.

MD did become the standard for field recordings in the broadcast radio industry, and almost every music lover knows that you "need" an MD for recording bootlegs of concerts. But MD was never considered a serious audio recording tool.

I don't know if Sony can resurrect MD, now that they finally support uncompressed PCM recording. I have contacted every musician/studio friend I know, and the response has been less than enthusiastic... The guys I know are content to lug around a laptop with their studio software (Cakewalk, Logic, etc) instead. Especially considering you can get a new laptop from Dell for $499, and a top-of-the-line HiMD is a whopping $349... I wouldn't expect to see much sales of the new HiMD unless the price drops below $200.

[e1ghtyf1ve]

One of the issues I don't see discussed often enough is -- MD historically was never considered a serious audio recording tool, because Sony never allowed true "hi fidelity" PCM stereo recording.

I am a musician, and in the late 80's/early 90's, having a digital recorder was considered the "holy grail".

Indeed - I remember those times. I used an open-reel PCM recorder. Still have it, weighs over 100lbs.

MD failed on this point because its best resolution was compressed, lossy 256Kbps ATRAC, with a well-documented hi-frequency shelf of about 17KHz.

You lost me here - didn't you mean 292kbps? Where did you get 17kHz? Maybe you mean MP3 which has design limitations with frequencies above 15.8kHz (Wikipedia has a good entry). Actually, in my view this is not a problem since MP3 was created for voice, whereas ATRAC was designed specifically for music compression. The quality difference was obvious to my ears back then, and it remains to some extent today.

Musicians,studios, and serious hi-fi aficionados instead adopted DAT and ADAT (an 8-track DAT recorder that used standard VHS video tapes), which recorded music in the same format as CD's (44.1KHz sampling, stereo, 16-bit PCM). Then, when recordable CD's and HD recorders came around, people moved to that platform. MD was left behind.

By whom? Some folks left MD, some didn't. My DAT decks work well to this day, but never inspire the confidence I have with even an older MD portable.

MD did become the standard for field recordings in the broadcast radio industry, and almost every music lover knows that you "need" an MD for recording bootlegs of concerts. But MD was never considered a serious audio recording tool.

For field recording, at this price range, it's the only tool available. Period. Yes, I have an MT2496 flash recorder. Sorry, M-Audio is not even in the same league as Sony. I looked at Edirol and didn't know whether to laugh or cry. Enough said.

I don't know if Sony can resurrect MD, now that they finally support uncompressed PCM recording. I have contacted every musician/studio friend I know, and the response has been less than enthusiastic... The guys I know are content to lug around a laptop with their studio software (Cakewalk, Logic, etc) instead. Especially considering you can get a new laptop from Dell for $499, and a top-of-the-line HiMD is a whopping $349... I wouldn't expect to see much sales of the new HiMD unless the price drops below $200.

Whoa - where do I begin? Are you being serious?

For MD to be resurrected it would have had to die first, don't you think?

I wouldn't touch a $499 Dell for recording. My Powerbook includes 24-bit sound out of the box. With the Dell I'd need to spend over $100 just for a decent sound card. Then there's all that weight to lug around. How about the studio software? Decent packages cost more than that "whopping $349" you mention.

Cheers

[ksandbergfl]

Whoa - where do I begin? Are you being serious?

I wouldn't touch a $499 Dell for recording. My Powerbook includes 24-bit sound out of the box. With the Dell I'd need to spend over $100 just for a decent sound card. Then there's all that weight to lug around. How about the studio software? Decent packages cost more than that "whopping $349" you mention.

You over-analyzed my point. I wasn't advocating a Dell laptop as a recording tool... I was using "a $499 Dell" as a comparison to state the $349 HiMD's are, in my opinion, way over-priced.

I was saying, that among the group of musician/studio guys I know -- every single one of them would rather lug along a laptop, Cakewalk or Protools, and maybe an external USB "sound card" for recording "on the go". Not one of them uses a MD for anything other than bootleg recording or perhaps doing rough stereo mixes from a sound board. They all acknowledge MD's place as a useful sound recording tool, but not one of them (except for me) has purchased a HiMD unit. With the new units -- maybe that will change... but I believe the price point has to come down. Way down. If the new fancy-schmancy unit hit the streets at $199, I'd seriously consider running out and buying it today. But, at $349, it's a little too expensive for my tastes.

The other angle to my analysis was -- if Sony had only provided PCM recording from the start..... everything would be different. I would even go so far to say that DAT might've never existed... and we all "know" that if Sony had allowed unlimited uploads/transfers from NetMD -- iPod might've never existed either. ;-)

Finally -- about the specs. There are many posts around this forum regarding the frequency specs of ATRAC vs. uncompressed PCM. I remember a 17KHz roll-off from somewhere... it may be in the NetMD forum, regarding LP2 or LP4. I could be wrong about the roll-off value, but I don't believe I am wrong about the fact that in the late 80's/early 90's, sound engineers typically avoided the MD because of the lossy ATRAC compression and the relatively poor frequency response.

Just my opinions. As a musician, I never ever seriously considered owning a MD until HiMD came out... and then, the main reason I bought one was for the USB Mass Storage option (300MB on a $2 disk, can't beat it!). It wasn't until Sony opened up the PCM recording and file transfers (the release of SS v3.4) that I even considered recording with one.

PS: I had a Fostex A8 8-track reel-to-reel for years. It made the greatest, warmest sounding recordings. I loved that thing. I used it up until around 1995-6, when I got my first Cakewalk system. I kept it until 2004, when I sold it on Ebay. It still worked fine -- but the poor thing got crushed in shipping!!!! It broke my heart when the buyer said it arrived in pieces. I still have a Tascam 4-track cassette unit (a 456 I think) sitting around, collecting dust. I won't risk the same fate with that, no matter how much the wife bugs me to sell it! ;-)

[MDGB2]

I can just people sitting at the concert hall with a laptop on their knees. (LOL)

Probably wouldn't even be allowed to take it in if you were seeing a big-name artist/band.

MD however, is easily sneaked in...

Edited April 6, 2006 by MDGB2

[Entropy]

The guys I know are content to lug around a laptop with their studio software (Cakewalk, Logic, etc) instead. Especially considering you can get a new laptop from Dell for $499, and a top-of-the-line HiMD is a whopping $349... I wouldn't expect to see much sales of the new HiMD unless the price drops below $200.

And that laptop will serve you well until some clumsy oaf of a reporter steps on it or knocks it off the stage. Or until someone starts playing with it. I'd never be willing to put my PowerBook on stage, though I might put a cheap old laptop up there.

A number of years ago I was calling a dance in Louisville . A reporter introduced himself to me with "Oh, that was *your* recorder I nearly stepped on." Needless to say I was a bit put out; if he had actually stepped on it, he'd've learned what a MiniDsic recorder feels like when it travels from the stage to the floor at high velocity--but the MD was both a smaller target and much more durable.

~ Kiran <entropy@io.com>

[e1ghtyf1ve]

I can just people sitting at the concert hall with a laptop on their knees. (LOL)

Probably wouldn't even be allowed to take it in if you were seeing a big-name artist/band.

MD however, is easily sneaked in...

So very true - thanks for the laugh!

[bchallman]

"MiniDisc has some serious advantages over .mp3 players, whether they be flash or HDD based."

I have an MP3 player or two and they're OK but NOTHING beats my MD players for time-shifting audio. The ease of line-in recording and the "mark track" button for bookmarking have yet to be beat by any MP3 players I've seen at any price. ]

My favorite model is my Sony sports model. It's a tough little sucker. I lost mine in London and grieved until I found another seemingly-brand-new one on eBay for $35. Sweet. with a bunch of MDs thrown in!

[sallymae_hogsby]

I just nitpicking here (I agree with your post)

if Sony had only provided PCM recording from the start..... everything would be different. I would even go so far to say that DAT might've never existed...

I'm pretty sure DAT came first, as Sony's first misguided attempt to replace the cassette. Much too fragile a medium to do that. I always got the impression that Sony unintentionally created a pro format with DAT, when it meant to create a consumer format.

[shigzeo]

If anyone is interested in reading that test by Sony .then see here

Proof that ATRAC is better than WMA & Mp3

well, i am sure that many have responded to this already, but i am at school, just finished an exam and do not want to bother about reading the whole thing. for 'proof' you cannot take evidence from a company's website about any of its products. have you stuge read the articles individually? they say that sony sent the studios, not md's with the sound recorded on it, but cd's with uncompressed md info and uncompressed mp3 information.

thus, sony picked samples, then game them to the studio. it was not random, not blind i that case at all and not fair. apple has done the same, claiming g5 as the fastest computer in the world, it is not and was not. md users claim ipod is rubbish and will prove that is sounds better than mp3 via the above mentioned methods.

i am both apple user of osx and md user for much longer. my fanboy for md days sort of dwindled with the release of atrac3+. it is certainly better at 48kbps or 64kbps than the similar atrac3, but it is not that great. pcm is the only reason that md has to brag now other than atrac lossless and 352kbps. 132 i have found to be to my ears and many others far inferior to a well encoded mp3 or vorbis for that matter.

now, if md opened up a bit, i hate sonic stage, cannot even use it on my parents windows computer because it does not have a sound card and thus always gives me errors of directsound. that sort of integration is rubbish. having said that, i am glad that the market is crowded now... the weak ones will pass and the better ones have only one way to pursue: up.

i will not purchase the new r1 based on any sort of belief that it sounds better, that it is more portable or that it has unlimited storage ability. i can upload for instance a flash recording from an iriver to any computer in about the same time it would take for me to finalize my md recording, wait for the bloody thing to finish its writing onto the disk and reach for another one, plug into the machine, set my recording settings and go. md is not anymore much of an advantage in the portable recording world. i will buy it because i like having md; it is nostalgic, looks cool, has fanboy written all over it and... if do not have one and comment on it here, i get flamed. that is the reason md must stay around, for my insurance in and about fanboys.

in hydrogenaudio, mp3 is the best... other sites have their favourites and here, atrac and md are the gods of portable audio. we are all wrong somewhere. just, the 'proof' we each have is full of holes.

[Mikami]

The other angle to my analysis was -- if Sony had only provided PCM recording from the start..... everything would be different. I would even go so far to say that DAT might've never existed... and we all "know" that if Sony had allowed unlimited uploads/transfers from NetMD -- iPod might've never existed either. ;-)

I could be wrong about the roll-off value, but I don't believe I am wrong about the fact that in the late 80's/early 90's, sound engineers typically avoided the MD because of the lossy ATRAC compression and the relatively poor frequency response.

DAT came out in 1986

MD cheap consumer units Came out in 1992

Therefore DAT was well astablished before MD not to mention MD's purpose when it came out was to out do the normal cassette recorder not DAT.

'Some' sound engineers may have avoided MD in the mid 90's but they could not have avoided them in the late 80's or in the early 90's because there were no MD studio equipment around to be avoided! After which 'some' sound engineers and people in radio used them and 'some' didn't.

Different people have different wants and/or needs and MD fits some people and others it does not. Now, getting back on track; I think the original article is great way of showing another way of thinking about MD and HI-MD is clearly not the only way but it sure one way of thinking through it and it may help 'some' people but not 'others'. I am happy that you are using HI-MD now and that you live in a place where computers are so cheap. Not, so where I live computers esp notebooks or laptops will cost a whole lot more here.

See you later,

Mikami

P.S.

All of my friends use MD for recording and have been for a long time. But, that does not mean any more or any less than simply:

One can find whatever it is he/she is looking for, if you want to find those that use MD you can find them, if you want to find those that do not or never used it you can also find them.

Here is a charming story of a sound engineer who used MD: http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_kevin_davis_quick/index.html

The Summer institue of lingistics and wycliffe Bible translators

( http://www.wycliffe.org/survey/ourown2.htm) use MD for recording and documenting new or rare languages.

Even students of language:

http://www.languageimpact.com/articles/rw/whyminidisc.htm

Edited April 8, 2006 by Mikami

[Tunster]

I for one have been a mixed user of both a MD (MDLP) Player/Recorder (including a deck) and an MP3 Player. I've got the MZ-N510/MDS-JE480 and the Cowon M3 40GB.

I had the MD equipment. One of my mates introduced me into the format. I loved the small and durable discs, the sound quality and niche of the format. At the time, I was doing alot of radio and it was fantastic to record my shows using MD. It had uses with recording CD music straight onto MD also so I didn't have to take my whole CD collection in. I did this for a couple of years where I introduced a few other people onto MD. After I while (no idea why), I ditched my MD equipment for a brand spanking new Cowon M3 player. With my increasing MP3/CD collection, I wanted something I could just drag and drop my music onto and play. You can see I already I don't like the iPod. Many reasons is that its a fashion fad I didn't want to get into.

Anyway, I've gracefully used my MP3 player for a couple of years and has been very useful having USB 2.0 support, radio, line-in recording, compatibility to many different formats (MP3, OGG, WMA, FLAC, WAV) and get sound quality.

Now recently, I got my MD equipment back into action and oh my god....... what have I been missing!? Now I've moved along without MD, its nice to have music on something removable. Especially with my CD collection growing quickly and stopping downloading music. The point is about the big comparison between MD and HDD based players is very simple....

With a quality and well solidly made product MD is (especially the MD media itself), I am afraid that one day my HDD in my DAP player will just go and I've lost all my music! Eventually, people will start realising that iPods are not so special. With the large amount of iPods around, the build quality of them cannot be substantial at all. Everyone so relies on iTunes and HDD.... the fact that HDDs are cheap for space, but not for long-term storage. Especially constant use by users. All the easy drag and drop purchases of an iPod from iTunes will be gone with no recovery when the HDD dies. It will be the test of time of when this will start happening at an alarming rate. Especially 2nd/3rd/4th iPod generation users.

On the other hand, MDs last a substantially long time. I download legal music quite often and I think MD is the best media to store them for a long time in regards to keeping quality (in SP mode). If Sony keep holding on to MD, I think very soon, people will start to walk away from iPods. Very optimisitc, but if Sony started to pitch the MD product right in terms of advertising and software (which they should of done years ago), it would/could become a very attractive audio player.