Is it just me? SP vs LP2

[Xeys_00]

Just for fun, I thought I'd do the optical out from my macbook to the mz-n707 and record 2 albums in SP. They were my fiance's, and we both like older music sometimes, so anyways... Heart's greatest Hits and Cher's Greatest Hits. I recorded both in SP. Aside from recording all as one track(which I am fixing currently as I listen by hitting track mark at the end of each song), the process was remarkably easy. I just set the volume at 1/2 on the recorder, and itunes had a maxxed out volume(although the optical out prevented any volume changes from using the controls). I slid the record switch, it waited for me to start the cd, and easy peasy. I had recorded all my cds using lp2. And I thought they sounded fine. But... Listening now to the recordings made in SP, it seems that the sound is "more alive and just a bit better" than what I'm used to from LP2. I thought there wasn't that big of a difference between how the 2 would sound. But I am afraid that I can hear a definite difference, and definitely in SP's favor. It's not distorted, and it's clear as a bell. Is this just a sound setting I've set by accident or something? I'm starting to reconsider rerecording all my stuff like this, because it sounds very good. The volume level is very different from what I recorded in sonic stage(louder, but in a good way). I monitored the original recordings, and the recordings sound identical to the cd. Is this what everyone's talking about when I read about the LP2 vs SP debate?

Edited January 26, 2009 by Xeys_00

[bobt]

it really boils down to let your ears be your guide, this time ears say SP, you can also try simple burner in SS to import and give that a try

Bob

[sfbp]

Yup. SP is as close to CD quality as you will ever see. LP2 only sounds decent if

a. you have something that transcodes well AND

b. the playback is Type-S.

For example I can satisfy a. (by experiment) but until I play back on my MXD-D400 which has analogue out into my stereo system the LP2 sound is (relatively) bad (I had my JE640 sitting with the stereo for a very short while until I discovered this).

Some tracks don't seem to satisfy a., either. Especially anything which started out life as MP3 (probably?!?) regardless of bit rate. The two encodings seem to "argue" with each other. Sony was accused of deliberately making MP3 sound bad when they first offered it in MD.. I actually think they had to work really hard to get around this one somehow. And that only applies to the "native MP3 playback" on certain HiMD units.

I seem to have noticed some strange encoding problems with relatively quiet music such as chamber music, normalised to a room-filling volume. Long held notes seem to be an especial problem. Bluecrab and I have exchanged disks and we may(!?) be able to tell you what is up in this regard.

But there's no question, SP is better. And the SP you get from SonicStage doesn't cut it, I expect you will find. There's no codec for SP on your computer, probably something to do with their agreements with Dolby (my guess is Sony obtained some license for something on hardware only, excluding PC's).

But you shouldn't be surprised that SP is better. More bits = more definition = clearer sound?

Stephen

[Xeys_00]

Yup. SP is as close to CD quality as you will ever see. LP2 only sounds decent if

a. you have something that transcodes well AND

b. the playback is Type-S.

For example I can satisfy a. (by experiment) but until I play back on my MXD-D400 which has analogue out into my stereo system the LP2 sound is (relatively) bad (I had my JE640 sitting with the stereo for a very short while until I discovered this).

Some tracks don't seem to satisfy a., either. Especially anything which started out life as MP3 (probably?!?) regardless of bit rate. The two encodings seem to "argue" with each other. Sony was accused of deliberately making MP3 sound bad when they first offered it in MD.. I actually think they had to work really hard to get around this one somehow. And that only applies to the "native MP3 playback" on certain HiMD units.

I seem to have noticed some strange encoding problems with relatively quiet music such as chamber music, normalised to a room-filling volume. Long held notes seem to be an especial problem. Bluecrab and I have exchanged disks and we may(!?) be able to tell you what is up in this regard.

But there's no question, SP is better. And the SP you get from SonicStage doesn't cut it, I expect you will find. There's no codec for SP on your computer, probably something to do with their agreements with Dolby (my guess is Sony obtained some license for something on hardware only, excluding PC's).

But you shouldn't be surprised that SP is better. More bits = more definition = clearer sound?

Stephen

Well, logically, yes, I get that part. But I had felt pretty good about my lp2 stuff. I am actually reconsidering how I feel about it now in light of sp.

[sfbp]

LOL.

Perfection is only perfect until you see the flaws, close up. Or put another way, we only appreciate the next level of sophistication after we have taken the current one for granted.

As I said a few days or more ago, you're hooked. Glad we got you hooked

But I am afraid that I can hear a definite difference, and definitely in SP's favor. It's not distorted, and it's clear as a bell. Is this just a sound setting I've set by accident or something? I'm starting to reconsider rerecording all my stuff like this, because it sounds very good. The volume level is very different from what I recorded in sonic stage(louder, but in a good way). I monitored the original recordings, and the recordings sound identical to the cd. Is this what everyone's talking about when I read about the LP2 vs SP debate?

Aha! Gotcha!!!!

The 707 doesn't have Type-S playback.

Try the same disk in your DN430. I bet it improves hugely. We're "all ears".

S

[Xeys_00]

LOL.

Perfection is only perfect until you see the flaws, close up. Or put another way, we only appreciate the next level of sophistication after we have taken the current one for granted.

As I said a few days or more ago, you're hooked. Glad we got you hooked

Aha! Gotcha!!!!

The 707 doesn't have Type-S playback.

Try the same disk in your DN430. I bet it improves hugely. We're "all ears".

S

Hmmm. I can hear the high hat very clearly now. To be fair I could hear it also on the 707. It's nice. I'll manually rerecord my stuff, I think. It'll take a while, but I think it will be worth it.

[sfbp]

The other point about SP is that it *is* an archive format. You need a deck or an RH1 to get stuff out but eventually you can.

LP2 is lossy and you really really don't want to save things in that format. So your decision makes sense.

The other clue I got was that LP2 recorded on HiMD format doesn't seem to have Type-S enhancement (based on my ears at least).

[kino170878]

SP is lossy too. Good sounding, but 292kbps. PCM is 1411kbps and just sounds more natural. Archive in PCM. From PCM you can go anywhere on any OS.

Recently I have been playing around with my girlfriend's 5.5 Gen iPod (the last iPod version with a Wolfson DAC), and hooked up to a decent amp and speakers, it sounds really good, as long as I put lossless audio on it.

All that iPod bashing there's been here on MDCF is unfounded. It certainly is a poor recorder to say the least, but for playback there is nothing wrong about it.

Say you have PCM files in Sonicstage. Is that PCM now playable (i.e. directly transferable) on any portable such as the iPod and any OS? Or do you have to convert the PCM again to WAV and use that instead?

[Syrius]

Make sure to convert that PCM to Wav, first. It's fully encrypted and DRM-ed fresh off SonicStage.

[sfbp]

Is not. The PCM files are stored as plain .wav's on the PC. The tagging info is contained in the SonicStage library.

Of course copyright tab is ticked off in SS settings; maybe that's what you meant.

Your last statement is only true for files imported from CD WHEN the import format is specified as WAV. Maybe you forgot this. I never knew it... thanks.

I've actually taken to importing CD's in Atrac Advanced Lossless, it seems to work quite smoothly and is not encumbered by the OpenMG nonsense where the encryption keys get lost on System Restore. Also saves 50% space on disk, and just as Sony claims, it seems to be (at least approximately) lossless (don't lets get into religion here, guys).

However the previous comments about needing to decrypt PCM are indeed true, when the PCM is uploaded from a recording on MD (eg microphone). In this case I title them(either on MD or on PC), export as WAV and now delete from SS and reimport as WAV. This guarantees no further mucking about with the sound and no chance that a crash of SS will lose them for me.

[jpteasy]

I'm a young veteran of 1999 when I got my first MD recorder. Sony MZ-R35. Its still going strong. Anyway...

I've dabbled in MDLP and have since moved onto HiMD. I was planning on getting an MDLP unit for my car, but my wife found a snazzy MD unit on eBay for peanuts. Anyway, I had planned to make some duplicate recordings in MD, MDLP and HiMD for the various units that I use.

Since installing my car stereo I have rediscovered the essence of MD that I found all those years ago. Crystal clear sound.

I have rerecorded all my favourite albums using my MZ-R35 rather than trusting Sonicstages MD transfer (it is not true MD) and I'm blown away by the detail.

I was using a Sony MZ-N510 through an FM transmitter but since installing my new stereo I found MDLP in both formats (LP2 & LP4) lacking in detail and clarity.

I have since taken the decision to concentrate my recording efforts on MD, HiSP and HiLP.

Unfortunately MDLP for me was Sony's early answer to MP3. Its a shame they didn't skip MDLP and move straight to HiMD, but that's another topic

[1kyle]

SP is lossy too. Good sounding, but 292kbps. PCM is 1411kbps and just sounds more natural. Archive in PCM. From PCM you can go anywhere on any OS.

Recently I have been playing around with my girlfriend's 5.5 Gen iPod (the last iPod version with a Wolfson DAC), and hooked up to a decent amp and speakers, it sounds really good, as long as I put lossless audio on it.

All that iPod bashing there's been here on MDCF is unfounded. It certainly is a poor recorder to say the least, but for playback there is nothing wrong about it.

Hi there

Why not archive in FLAC - it's also LOSSLESS and will save you a slew of disk space. If you add the NERO mega plug ins to NERO you can easily create your own "Virtual CD's" from FLAC directly and use SB / SS to create your MD.

Use Nero's Drive Image to mount the Virtual CD. This unfortuantely doesn't work in Vista anymore Grhhhh but I use an XP Virtual machine for this purpose (Simple Burner also doesn't work in Vista / Windows 7 so that's another reason to keep a Windows XP virtual machine).

From FLAC anyway you can transcode the tracks you want to copy to MD to WAV then ATRAC3 - with SS. There's no loss in transcoding FLAC to WAV - both LOSSLESS formats. After transcoding to ATRAC for the MD delete the WAV and just keep the FLAC. For me having a Windows XP virtual machine saves this step.

Some modern music players also play FLAC directly -- as it's lossless should sound like PCM anyway.

Even nicer as I've posted elsewhere if you have a CD + MD combo type deck burn a CD-R of your own compilation directly from the FLAC files (80 min max by the way for MD) or CD-RW if your player will handle it.

Then use the unit's 2X or 4X to dub the MD from your CD in SP mode --even 2X is better than real time and you've got proper SP recording.

Edit / title the tracks with SS. You don't need to copy any music to the library.

Nero plugins available here

http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Vi...ugin-Pack.shtml

cheers

jimbo

Edited January 28, 2009 by 1kyle

[Xeys_00]

For those who care, I will be starting my rerecording run on Thursday night. Realtime, from the macbook optical out, straight from the CD. For what it's worth, I am enjoying my music now more than I have in a long time. Sure, I had millions of songs on my ipod since 2004, but I can actually hear things now. The cymbals, the high hat, little riffs on the guitar that I have missed all these years. The last time I heard all these details was when I had a nice sony cd player back in my first year in the army, and I'd just pop a disc in, and have a good listen. And I like the sound of the electronics. I know you can encode an mp3 in 320, but I just plain like SP at 292. I'm a bit worried that I'll wear out my recording unit(new mz-n707), so I'm trying to find new in the box units like it. My used mz-r70 will be my mic recording unit, and I'll stop recording lectures with the 707. IS there any difference using a mz-r70 to record sp vs a newer unit like the 707? Did the atrac hardware encoding stuff change? It's silly, but I'm doing the recording like I used to with a cassette. Just record the whole cd as 1 80 minute track. And fast forward to the next song. I'll eventually put track marks in and all. And I may try to scan the cd cover and photoshop it and make something I can print out and stick on the minidisc. So, I've gone from millions of songs(actually thousands), to 30-40 songs per minidisc, to about 12-15. I've made the decision to embrace quality and a physical medium over quantity and a flash drive or hard disk. And I've taken Sonic stage out of the equation entirely. Incidentally, SP stereo records my marketing lectures very nicely, and transferring it out via line in gives me top notch results. I may end up converting my professors to recording using minidisc simply because it's so easy for a "non techy" to get. Put the disc in, plug in the lapel mic, and slide the record button. Click the hold button, put it in your jacket pocket. It's that easy. Sounds almost like it could be an Apple product. Ok, mindless blathering over.

[KJ_Palmer]

Is there any difference using a mz-r70 to record sp vs a newer unit like the 707? Did the atrac hardware encoding stuff change?

Well, the N707 has ATRAC Type-R, the ultimate codec for SP recordings. Not sure what version of ATRAC the R70, but it'll be an earlier version, not Type-R. ATRAC4.5 (which the R70 may have) preceded Type-R and was considered almost as good, and the differences in live recordings may well be negligible. If the mic-pre-amps are similar in both machines, which seems likely, the results should be almost the same. Only Hi-MD recorders, using PCM format are likely to beat the N707 and R70 for recording quality.

[KHA]

Just for fun, I thought I'd do the optical out from my macbook to the mz-n707 and record 2 albums in SP. They were my fiance's, and we both like older music sometimes, so anyways... Heart's greatest Hits and Cher's Greatest Hits. I recorded both in SP. Aside from recording all as one track(which I am fixing currently as I listen by hitting track mark at the end of each song), the process was remarkably easy. I just set the volume at 1/2 on the recorder, and itunes had a maxxed out volume(although the optical out prevented any volume changes from using the controls). I slid the record switch, it waited for me to start the cd, and easy peasy. I had recorded all my cds using lp2. And I thought they sounded fine. But... Listening now to the recordings made in SP, it seems that the sound is "more alive and just a bit better" than what I'm used to from LP2. I thought there wasn't that big of a difference between how the 2 would sound. But I am afraid that I can hear a definite difference, and definitely in SP's favor. It's not distorted, and it's clear as a bell. Is this just a sound setting I've set by accident or something? I'm starting to reconsider rerecording all my stuff like this, because it sounds very good. The volume level is very different from what I recorded in sonic stage(louder, but in a good way). I monitored the original recordings, and the recordings sound identical to the cd. Is this what everyone's talking about when I read about the LP2 vs SP debate?

It happened the contrary to me: I used to record and to listen MDs in SP and HI-SP formats for years now.

Last week, i wanted to do a big best of all, with pretty much everything... and in the format HI-LP ... i must say i realise how far ears can get used to good or bad quality sounds.

My true question is: do you guys know what is the order of sound quality for recording MDs?

Here is the order i guess, but i am looking for some document detailling results:

PCM

HI-SP

SP

LP

HI-LP

LP2

Ok, i just had a look to the website informations, and i realised how far i was wrong, need to have a more detailled look at it

Edited January 28, 2009 by kha

[Richard]

There a quite a few threads analyzing results of various bitrates, but as many will point out - it's all subjective etc... But purely from a listing point of view the usable (on MD) rates I am aware of are (in descending order)

PCM

Atrac3+ 352k

SP (292k)

Hi-SP (256k)

Atrac 3+ 192k

LP2 (132k)

LP3 (105k)

LP4 (66k)

Hi-LP (64k)

Atrac3+ 48k

Although some would argue Hi-LP sounds better than LP4 etc...

[jpteasy]

And others that Hi-SP sounds better than SP...

I would definitely say that Hi-LP is more refined than LP4. As I said earlier in the thread I think MDLP (particularly LP4) was Sony's knee-jerk reaction to the success of MP3.

To their credit they took the goal of cramming as much music information onto a tiny disc with as little degradation of quality as possible at the time.

[Xeys_00]

Been a little bit since I posted on this thread, but wanted to let y'all know how the recording is going. I'm using Itunes, turning the internal volume(in the itunes program) to 3/4 volume. The computer volume is on full. It does this immediately when I plug in my optical transfer cable. It isn't that accurate on trackmarks, but I'm not labeling the tracks or marking the songs in any way. I'm just treating it like a cassette recording. And it's going well.

[KHA]

I hope i won't be too much off topic but as we are talking about audio format...

I would like to prevent the end of MD (at least, the end of my use) by starting convert all my cds in some computer based audio file such as MP3, WMA, ect...

Considering that my priority is the audio quality, which audio file can i use? which compression rate? And finally with which tool? (i mean i liked WMP but what if i chose something else than MP3 or WMA?)

I would like to start convertion even before buying any device, as my MD is still working, as a back up... and i just realised it may take a while so better to get started!

[theblueraja]

I use LP2 exclusively (CD audio ripping & playback). I go for the ignorance is bliss tactic, as I once played SP and LP2 back to back and realized SP was crisper and "slightly" better sounding to MY ears... so I stuck with LP2 for capacity's sake... 2-3 CDs on a standard MD is so perfect for me.

[sinus]

I hope i won't be too much off topic but as we are talking about audio format...

I would like to prevent the end of MD (at least, the end of my use) by starting convert all my cds in some computer based audio file such as MP3, WMA, ect...

Considering that my priority is the audio quality, which audio file can i use? which compression rate? And finally with which tool? (i mean i liked WMP but what if i chose something else than MP3 or WMA?)

I would like to start convertion even before buying any device, as my MD is still working, as a back up... and i just realised it may take a while so better to get started!

1. FLAC !

2. OGG

3. MP3

[Sony_Fan]

LP2 = softer and older music

SP = louder and newer music

Record an oldie song from the 60s or 70s in LP2 and SP. There's almost no difference in sound quality. Then record a hip-hop, techno, rock or other loud music in LP2 and SP. SP will yield better sound quality. This is because at lower bitrates like LP2, distortion arises from recording loud music. SP does a great job of minimizing or virtually eliminating distortion.

[Sony_Fan]

The Spring Festival is the most important festival for the Chinese people and is when all family members get together, just like Christmas in the West. All people living away from home go back, becoming the busiest time for transportation systems of about half a month from the Spring Festival. Airports, railway stations and long-distance bus stations are crowded with home returnees.

wow gold,

The Spring Festival falls on the 1st day of the 1st lunar month, often one month later than the Gregorian calendar. It originated in the Shang Dynasty (c. 1600 BC-c. 1100 BC) from the people's sacrifice to gods and ancestors at the end of an old year and the beginning of a new one. wow power leveling,

Strictly speaking, the Spring Festival starts every year in the early days of the 12th lunar month and will last till the mid 1st lunar month of the next year. Of them, the most important days are Spring Festival Eve and the first three days. The Chinese government now stipulates people have seven days off for the Chinese Lunar New Year.

wow gold,

Many customs accompany the Spring Festival. Some are still followed today, but others have weakened. wow gold,

On the 8th day of the 12th lunar month, many families make laba porridge, a delicious kind of porridge made with glutinous rice, millet, seeds of Job's tears, jujube berries, lotus seeds, beans, longan and gingko. wow power leveling,

The 23rd day of the 12th lunar month is called Preliminary Eve. At this time, people offer sacrifice to the kitchen god. Now however, most families make delicious food to enjoy themselves. wow power leveling,

After the Preliminary Eve, people begin preparing for the coming New Year. This is called "Seeing the New Year in".

wotlk gold,

Store owners are busy then as everybody goes out to purchase necessities for the New Year. Materials not only include edible oil, rice, flour, chicken, duck, fish and meat, but also fruit, candies and kinds of nuts. What's more, various decorations, new clothes and shoes for the children as well as gifts for the elderly, friends and relatives, are all on the list of purchasing.

wow gold,

Before the New Year comes, the people completely clean the indoors and outdoors of their homes as well as their clothes, bedclothes and all their utensils.

Then people begin decorating their clean rooms featuring an atmosphere of rejoicing and festivity. All the door panels will be pasted with Spring Festival couplets, highlighting Chinese calligraphy with black characters on red paper. The content varies from house owners' wishes for a bright future to good luck for the New Year. Also, pictures of the god of doors and wealth will be posted on front doors to ward off evil spirits and welcome peace and abundance. wotlk gold,

The Chinese character "fu" (meaning blessing or happiness) is a must. The character put on paper can be pasted normally or upside down, for in Chinese the "reversed fu" is homophonic with "fu comes", both being pronounced as "fudaole." What's more, two big red lanterns can be raised on both sides of the front door. Red paper-cuttings can be seen on window glass and brightly colored New Year paintings with auspicious meanings may be put on the wall.

wow gold,

Spring Festival

What the f*** are you talking about? Someone ban this scammer please.

[theblueraja]

Seriously... I just skimmed a bit and was like "whatever"... but this dude has had 507 posts here??

Edited February 19, 2009 by theblueraja

[jpteasy]

Seriously... I just skimmed a bit and was like "whatever"... but this dude has had 507 posts here??

No its the person above him. Its Daier that posted it and he's a beginner. A shame because I thought there was going to be an interesting thought in this thread.