Revival of the MD/Hi-MD Format

[Russell Letson]

I used MD for a dozen years, starting with an MZ-B3, through several B-100s, to a couple of RH-1s, but I have to say that MD was pretty much over for me as a field/interview-recording format once I found the Olympus LS-10. I do miss the timed track-marking and other in-unit editing functions, but the Olympus lacks the MD's fragility while offering at least as much recording flexibility (16- and 24-bit PCM, various MP3 bitrates; complete upload/download freedom) and 2-gig of internal memory expandable via SD card to another 16 gig. (Its replacement, the LS-11, has 8 gig of internal memory and takes a 32-gig SD card.) And it runs on AA batteries. It's a bit bigger and quite a bit heavier than an RH-1, but it's sturdier and its control ergonomics are better. Decent mikes and pre-amps, and a pair of tiny but functional monitor speakers (shades of the Sony B series). I'm not getting rid of my MD gear (if only because of the dozens of disks in my files), but the Oly has about everything I need in a field recorder. And it holds an entire audiobook without even straining.

[md user]

As headphone amps don't change the SQ of the source, I was thinking more about the iMod, or cheaper, DIYiMod, and best, DIYSSDiMod.

Right. I've had a look at some pages; even seen that you've dabbled with a CF mod. [Did it go well?]

My only question is - is it worth it?

It's just that I bought a refurb. 1Gig Sansa Clip cheap; it supposedly has a flat response &c. with no capacitance limitations; however, without an headphone amp it STILL doesn't sound as good as my Sharp SR50! The equalisation on the Sansa &c. is clearly at the 'pre-amp' stage!

The punchline: the SR50 is NOT a perfect flat response in amplification! And yet it IS the one I would take to a 'desert island'...

Maybe it's my 'over-used' ears ...

Regards!

And keep supporting MDs! Real men do ... :-} [ref. a thread elsewhere]

mdmad.

[Stuge]

wow ! 29 people want to see MD back.

[star]

I think this format is a dying breed and if so, that's fine with me. We should let it RIP

With the fact that Sony is now getting involved in the hard drive recorders, I think it spells an inevitable end to MiniDisc. Sony probably could have developed a bigger and better Minidisc - but why bother? Even though other companies manufactured Minidisc products before, they don't want to spend their money on something that has had disappointing sales. This is probably one of the reasons why you have not seen a Sharp, Panasonic Hi-MD player/recorder when Hi-MD came out in 2004. Simply put, I don't recall seeing a store where they offered a whole bunch of minidisc products over the years. I've seen far and few. When I decided to get into the Hi-Md, I bought it off the internet - not in a store. That may show you how much confidence some stores have with the MiniDisc format.

Sure, Sony will not announce the end of MiniDisc right now, but I think it will happen soon. Remember, it took them years before they decided to end support for the DAT machines - and those things didn't really sell well either when they were new. I believe support for DAT was ended in the end of 2005 officially.

I know a lot of people still love the vintage stuff such as analog tape and they prefer it. However, I like to see technology move ahead, not backwards.

I think everyone needs to brace themselves for the end of Minidisc. I hope a lot of you have figured out better ways to store digital information rather than to rely on the MiniDisc media. IMO, there are better ways than Minidisc - especially in today's world. I am not anti-Minidisc, by any means. As I said in a previous post, I still own two Hi-MD units - one of which is going to be used in the next few weeks for a tape transfer, since I am willing to send that unit and not my beloved Edirol (I can't live without it).

[NickyJay]

Legacy MD units are still being made and this will continue for the forseeable future. MD fills a niche gap in the professional user market. And audiophiles realise that portable MD still gives the best sound quality.

[NickyJay]

Most of it is only available to the Japanese market.

[star]

Most of it is only available to the Japanese market.

So it's going to die in Japan where it all started?

Brilliant move, Sony.

[stargazer_tom1]

What would be a good alternative to md for an audiophile? MD is small, light and designed just for music. pcm series is too bulky and not convenient as a playback device.... cowon s9 etc also focus on video, photos etc sound is not the main focus like md....

[mmp64]

What would be a good alternative to md for an audiophile? MD is small, light and designed just for music. pcm series is too bulky and not convenient as a playback device.... cowon s9 etc also focus on video, photos etc sound is not the main focus like md....

I would check out Sony's "S" series Walkman. Excellent sound for a portable, great battery life - and supports drag and drop. Once again, their software sucks, but as I said, they are drag and drop from Explorer, and can also be used with Windows Media Player, Winamp, etc. etc. No integration like you get with an iPod and iTunes in terms of smart playlists, etc., which is unfortunate.

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665940169

As far as the original topic - MD was killed in the States when Sony shut down the Connect store and stopped supporting ATRAC. To my knowledge, there is no place - bricks & mortar or online - to buy "new stock" MD units in the US, because there aren't any. There is no place to buy blanks, other than eBay and a handful of online specialty stores (and I believe they are importing them). Sony's own web site does not sell MD units or blanks - so, it is over, and has been over for quite some time. To paraphrase Dickens, MD is deader than a doornail. I'm speaking as someone with over 15 portable units (one I just got yesterday), two decks, and a car unit, so I'm devoted to the cause, but I have no illusions.

I won't go in to great detail about what went wrong - but will just say that my personal belief is that NetMD killed MD in the States. It had a reasonably high profile (you could go into Best Buy and get one) - so a fair amount of people bought them or were at least aware of them. But as a consume product, at that time, NetMD was a disaster - if for no other reason than they plastered a giant "MP3" on the box implying to Joe Sixpack that he could plug his MD into the USB on his PC and drag his pilfered Metallica MP3s onto the cute little discs. Oops.

Though having said all of that, there is that Tascam deck - but obviously that is not Sony, and it is not HiMD.

http://www.tascam.com/products/md-cd1.html

That is exactly my point of view!!!!

WHY does SONY still makes TAPE decks and recorders (that they are a PHILIPS format) and they STOPPED making MiniDisc Hi-Fi Deck Componets???? As for the comparisson of the MD to MP3 or any other DATA related format, MD was never intented to replace them! MD was intenetd to replase TAPE

So why is SONY and TEAC and other still make TAPE decs but they do not make MD decks????

So please explain to me why is Sony STILL making TAPE decks???? Are they not dead dead?

Because MILLIONS and MILLIONS of tape decks, Walkmans, etc. etc. were sold for multiple decades, by multiple manufacturers. I would be surprised if total sales for MDs reached even 1% of tape.

[Azureal]

Because MILLIONS and MILLIONS of tape decks, Walkmans, etc. etc. were sold for multiple decades, by multiple manufacturers. I would be surprised if total sales for MDs reached even 1% of tape.

That's a really great point. It is sad but true. :-/

[mmp64]

That's a really great point. It is sad but true. :-/

This thread got me thinking - the most important gift I ever received was a little cassette deck on my 13th birthday. It started a life-long obsession with audio recording. My son is now 13, and I realized there is no equivalent device in the digital age - a cheap, easy-to-use device for doing simple recording, and one that enables you to play it back (via a speaker) on the same unit. MD never did that in the consumer market, and now I'm wondering why not. Why did they only go with the Walkman form factor? So anyway - I ended up going to Wal-Mart and buying my son - you guessed it - a tape deck. So now he can goof around recording stuff and play it back immediately. It was quite fascinating watching him try to figure out how to use physical media - because he really has no exposure to it, other than watching me. I was thinking a cool invention would be to make something that basically looks and works like a tape deck but uses flash media and has a USB port for uploading your recordings to PC. I know there is such a thing - but they are geared towards musicians and/or reporters in terms of their form factor and features. I'm thinking something more like a tape deck - something easy for kids to use.

[sfbp]

For the umpteenth time, I say, check out THIS. The best thing about it: it's only 2oz + weight of 2 AAA's. Even has a tin(n)y speaker for instant playback, as well as built in mikes.

Sorry to shout.

I'm certain this is the replacement that fulfils exactly what you are talking about.

Cheers

Stephen

PS if you ever want to lose the EH930, I am sure we could come to some sort of arrangement

[PsychoPimpKiller]

This thread got me thinking - the most important gift I ever received was a little cassette deck on my 13th birthday. It started a life-long obsession with audio recording.

I know what you mean. When I was about 10 I got a little dual cassette boom box. I used to record stuff off of the radio all the time and then my brother, my cousin and I would make our own recordings. That was the neatest thing in my life at that point. I don't think that I have them anymore but I still remember being able to do it. The good old days. But yeah, there isn't really any type of format for the kids of today to hold, make custom designs on or even catalog like we all probably did with cassettes. Well, they could still cassettes or CD's and possibly even MD's if they had access to them. The good old days.

[sfbp]

Because MILLIONS and MILLIONS of tape decks, Walkmans, etc. etc. were sold for multiple decades, by multiple manufacturers. I would be surprised if total sales for MDs reached even 1% of tape.

BTW, I was in Sony Service Centre to order a part yesterday (to fix my "new" bookshelf unit) and on the wall there was a poster created in 1999 or 2000 showing the history of the (cassette) walkman. There was a whole page of them, about 15 columns by 30 rows, I think.

I think this beats MD in numbers of models by one company by quite a bit

Stephen

[Azureal]

I am keeping my brand new unused MZ-B10 in it's box until my 5 year old son is 8 or ten. It has a built in mic, speaker, cassette recorder 'like' controls and runs on AA batteries. I know he'll have a great time with it. :-)

[mmp64]

For the umpteenth time, I say, check out THIS. The best thing about it: it's only 2oz + weight of 2 AAA's. Even has a tin(n)y speaker for instant playback, as well as built in mikes.

Sorry to shout.

I'm certain this is the replacement that fulfils exactly what you are talking about.

Cheers

Stephen

PS if you ever want to lose the EH930, I am sure we could come to some sort of arrangement

Thanks. This is exactly the kind of device I think is too complicated - for kids. I would like it, of course. But for kids/teens - I'm literally thinking about something with 4-5 big buttons, like an old-school cassette recorder. Something tough, that could take the abuse. Something easy - no gain controls, no meters, etc. etc. Just a mic, a mic input, a speaker, buttons, a counter of some type, headphone jack, etc - but it's really a "modern" device - with a flash drive, USB port, etc. I would even say it would run on two "AA" batteries vs. having a built-in rechargeable battery. Maybe take a cue from the old school MDs and be able to re-charge the batteries in the unit.

My EH930 is part of my MD "display" collection. I bought little stands for them and have them positioned at various places in my house, like pieces of pop art. I bought it used a couple of years ago on eBay - not in the greatest shape (to a collector) - there is some scratching. I can't understand why someone would allow such a beautiful device to get beat up.

[philippeb]

I am keeping my brand new unused MZ-B10 in it's box until my 5 year old son is 8 or ten. It has a built in mic, speaker, cassette recorder 'like' controls and runs on AA batteries. I know he'll have a great time with it. :-)

The MZ-B10 is a lovely recorder. I have one. My wife has one. We use them every day. We have a spare unit, also, just in case.

[sfbp]

I'm literally thinking about something with 4-5 big buttons, like an old-school cassette recorder. Something tough, that could take the abuse. Something easy - no gain controls, no meters, etc. etc. Just a mic, a mic input, a speaker, buttons, a counter of some type, headphone jack, etc - but it's really a "modern" device - with a flash drive, USB port, etc. I would even say it would run on two "AA" batteries

1. I think the buttons are quite big actually (kids are pretty adaptable, it's way less fiddly than the teeny tiny buttons on most MD). Maybe a few too many settings but you can't please everyone. Certainly kid can make LOTS of recordings by pressing record and playback and perhaps FF and REW. Automatic gain if needed.

2. As I mentioned it runs on std AAA batteries, has std USB connx, headphone jack, mics.

I even dropped mine

[mmp64]

1. I think the buttons are quite big actually (kids are pretty adaptable, it's way less fiddly than the teeny tiny buttons on most MD). Maybe a few too many settings but you can't please everyone. Certainly kid can make LOTS of recordings by pressing record and playback and perhaps FF and REW. Automatic gain if needed.

2. As I mentioned it runs on std AAA batteries, has std USB connx, headphone jack, mics.

I even dropped mine

Perhaps I will buy him one for Christmas then. If he doesn't like it, I will simply add it to my collection.

[sfbp]

Christmas sounds way too long to wait. The strategy of buying for another family member in case it's suitable caused me to buy too many must-have used MD's, that's for sure. Of course the spousal unit saw through the excuse, every time.

After all the price might even go up again (yeah right)

S

[darrencouch]

I would settle for open sourcing the encryption on the players as well as the ATRAC formats so someone can design a proper SonicStage and/or some firmware updates.

[netmduser]

The opensource project would be a great idea, how difficult could this be?

[mmp64]

The opensource project would be a great idea, how difficult could this be?

That is a totally awesome drawing - did you do that? (of the 610 or 510).

[THIS SUCKS]

its a modified picture?

[netmduser]

drawing is from a photo

[ozpeter]

Belatedly commenting on simple recorders for kids - the Zoom H1 is probably the simplest out there, and quality is very good. No menus, even.

[GubduG]

the best thing i like about minidiscs is that theyre small ENOUGH - no need for smaller stuff, i like to feel things in my pocket - and last forever. otherwise the format is lovely but dead. to my thinking if you cut a blue ray disc to the size of a minidisc youd be able to fit about i dunno - around 4 gbs of data on it? mass production in china should lower the cost of the laser head so why still use the freaking huge cds dvds and etc? all the cds ive written lasted me about a day-2. all my old cds are scratched useless and are not pocketable.i always loose stuff - imagine how it will be when theyll start selling micro sd albums all over for cheaper - people will lose data on the floor i hate it. i also hate sony for ruining aiwa.

i actually bought a yamaha md8 8 track mixer couple days ago and realised that there would be no way for me to export the split tracks cause it uses md data discs for recording 8 tracks at once and nothing else really reads them so the only way is to rip them separately realtime which sucks cause im not only messy as hell im also lazy. the 2 md data the seller gave me may be the last on earth so i wont be opening the one in wrapping i guess. it can only record 2 tracks at once on a regular minidisc so talking about dead formats md data is one and so is the original minisisc cause it wont really transfer the data when it can and shoud like the hi-md lets you, right? love the machine tho! and i love md - just b/itching since its dead anyhow.

so i think sony shouldve just kept increasing the minidis's storage space - not too hard a task for a giant. and the best things about the format in general is the casing and the latter direct wav rec support. i dunno how atrac really differs from flac mp3 vbr cbr ape whatever. i only want the best one to win. if i count all the money ive spent on scratched round plastic im pretty sure id be better off with the minidisc cause it is obviously much more rewritable than cdrw dvdrw plus minus - awful stuff to keep in mind, these subtypes of things.

i grew up on cassettes and im used to carrying portative stuff with buttons and mechanisms cause you feel it better than carrying tons of music you cant remember where you downloaded from and why. btw i think the rh1 and hi md was a sweet start for the new era of md.

and opening the codes is a must do for a corp that no longer makes money of the product it released and created the buzz then shut it down. i used to love sony portable stuff but the last thing i liked was the hd5 and it was too quiet for me even with the volume unlocked. anyone actually ever used the avls button on anything? ))

whata long open letter. ))

[sfbp]

The hi-MD format will only last forever if Sony makes a HiMD deck. And it seems they aren't about to. When you look at how simple the servicing of a flash recorder is... well that's one answer why, right there.

I've pointed out many times that an AtracCD-capable headunit is like having a HiMD in your car. Everyone seems to come to this thread and vote so maybe I will ask my question here: Does anyone know how the MP3-capable car changers (like the CDX-757MX) work? Do they send data or audio to the head unit? If they were to send data, I bet they would play ATRAC CD's too. But I don't really want to go to the hassle of trying it out if not.

Stephen

[mikebuddy1]

I doubt that Sony will re-enter the market with MD, and it's not as if we are not with the format now as here in Ireland the

Sony Shops still stock the MZ RH1 HiMD @ 260 euro a pop & also TDK 80 Blank Minidiscs are available to bye in the shops.

I see that Tascam also have a deck that came onto only last year with MDLP so theres still life in this great format here in europe

at any rate.

I am also voting YES for what it's worth,but keep up the good work & mabie just mabie !!!

[Chickenvenus]

I also voted yes, but realistically, I can't see Somy doing it, not now, not in 2011. If this was a few years ago I might have thought there was a chance.

The format will at best stay on as a niche specialist one.

[netmduser]

I voted yes as well. Not likely I know.

I was thinking they could come out with a nice name like MD Classic. Have some new features of Hi-MD but using MD discs with upload capabilities. Might as well throw in wi-fi access and maybe a mini browser. Sell it for 100 dollars and lots of people would buy it right :) ?

[md user]

I voted yes as well. Not likely I know.

I was thinking they could come out with a nice name like MD Classic. Have some new features of Hi-MD but using MD discs with upload capabilities. Might as well throw in wi-fi access and maybe a mini browser. Sell it for 100 dollars and lots of people would buy it right :) ?

Sounds TRUE*, but unachievable.

That is to say, I have bought a load of (cheap and second-hand) DAPs as well as good-ish headphones - and have now completed my 'research' of the portable audio scene (to my tastes). My conclusion is now: without going to SuperAudio standards, my Sharp (pre-1Bit type) and Sony MD players ARE SUPERB and SERIOUS DAPs! But is that good enough to market the format again?

So, even though MY heart is still with these solid players and the format - **who can NOW be converted en-masse to buy them? No-one wants discs, I think, except us, 'the Converted'. And how are we going to get the masses to go the same route of research? None.

My IPod Touch is an excellent all-rounder and is a source for getting music (which was its intention by Apple); it's just a shame that Sony's earlier attempt at this failed through software and over-restriction - *why repeat the mistake and against Apple now? What can MD offer more for this purpose?

Enjoy the history of MD's contribution. It WAS (and still IS to me) great! **But that's where it'll remain, methinks, even with your suggestions going in the obvious right direction.

Regards all,

mdmad.

I'm still mad about 'em!

[Offtopic, but whilst I'm here]: does anybody know how to enter Service Mode for a Sharp DR400/10/20 series? I just need to tweak EQs on these 1bit players (to make them sound as good as my earlier models). Please Message me to keep it off the thread. Thanx!.

[transparant]

Years ago, when the 3,5 floppy disc drives were changing for removable drives with bigger capacities (zip, jazz discs), I had askes Sony during the HCC days in Utrecht that the MD drive will be the perfect replacement. I thought if the users can store the data in MD and listen/ buy music with it, MD would have been ruled the world without doubt. But instead of that, Sony made MD too proprietary (sonicstage) and data was non accessible with a computer. So when Hi-MD finally arrived in 2006, my first MD device was the NH600 and is still going strong.

I still wish that Sony will produce Hi-MD devices for cars, since my CD-R collections aren't working so well and I have to make new copies every year!

[sfbp]

I still wish that Sony will produce Hi-MD devices for cars, since my CD-R collections aren't working so well and I have to make new copies every year!

I have made this comment many times! Rush out and get one of the Sony head units which supports AtracCD (before they disappear). Then you can transfer any ATRAC3/ATRAC3+ sound, without modification, to a CD-R. This gets you from 4 to 10 CD's compressed onto a single disk, depending on your bitrate. You can even mix bitrates, and Atrac3 with Atrac3+, just as on a real HiMD.

The models I know of that support AtracCD are:

CDX-GT510,610,710,810

MEX-BT5000,5100

There are probably some more, but all of the above models except the 810 should be available second hand. You'll have to check the specs of any unit you are proposing to buy, on the Sony support website.

[sfbp]

Oz, we already had this discussion. You don't dispute that the quality of an AtracCD is identical to that of a HiMD, surely?

When you make an AtracCD there are no jog issues (bumpy road) because the unit buffers up about 5x as much data on average, due to compression.

And making a copy of an AtracCD is trivial especially if you do it ahead of time. However mostly one would simply go back to SS and throw away one if it stopped functioning. I haven't had that problem, yet. The other great thing is that, unlike commercial CD's, noone can or will steal it.

Long live Atrac CD! It may even turn out to be a nice archival format - watch this space!

Stephen

[sfbp]

Anachronism or not, there's no way 99.9% of all ears can hear the full glory of 1411kbps uncompressed over the noises in 99.9% of all cars. The point raised was that transparant asked for HiMD in the car.

Essentially you're saying that compressed music isn't worth having - which we have read before that you believe. But most people here adore MD and HiMD precisely because it is the right combination of size and reproduction quality for their needs. Some even believe that 66kbps can sound great, properly mastered.

But taking the request for "Hi-MD in car" as a proxy for "Hi-SP (256kbps Atrac3+) in car, I think you should (but perhaps do not) regard a CD with approximately 6 hours of HiSP music on it as quite a good substitute for the HiMD deck that we will never get out of Sony, or Onkyo.

Finally, for the point about archival - why would you ever need to archive 1411Khz music when you can buy the commercial CD? But to archive one's MD recordings and compressed CD recordings seems a worthy objective, especially as it saves CD's and takes less time to copy them (before they decompose) later.

[sfbp]

The big argument against uncompressed digital media (and why stop at 44.1Khz 1411kbps?) is that it takes space. I have lots of recordings with no more information content in them than 66kbps or 132kbps or 256kbps (depending on source), and to record those at uncompressed CD rates would give me 10x to 20x the storage and backup problem. Instead of fitting in under 100GB, these files would occupy a whole 1TB disk. That's a real pain.

But shall we examine the whole compressed vs uncompressed thing for a moment? The choice of 1411kbps is purely arbitrary, and reduces "real" sound to a digital space of a certain dimension. So it is essentially an arbitrary digitization of "real life", just like any digital picture. The aversion to compression surely comes from previous experiments showing that decompression doesn't work well. Yet this is the BASIS for MD and HiMD and FLAC - decompressing sound from disk to audio. Most of the resistance to compression (outside our little MD world) is from the genuinely awful quality of MP3 (which suits the record companies rather well, it happens!).

But for me at least, the MD and CD storage means are all about preserving vinyl records in a form that is digital. I only ever got into MD to convert my vinyl and cassettes (the worst medium of all, except that some recordings on cassette were new enough to be quite decent). Things have moved on somewhat, and I really don't believe that I have in my collection a single vinyl record that has more information content than a modern CD any more. That's because most of them were mastered before record companies had access to any of the modern techniques for capturing sound. Meanwhile the companies HAVE made digital versions of most of their important records. You can often tell the ones that they did this to, by the pattern of background noise between tracks and in silences.

Modern vinyl may be "the answer" but I still don't think it offers the same flexibility as digitised sound. It may be "uncompressed" but for most applications CD quality and even 66bps knocks the socks off what almost everyone is able (given their equipment and ears) to hear off an analogue system.

Sure, you can spend $20,000 on an audiophile cartridge and analogue sound system. 10 years ago one could buy an all-digital system for the same amount. So what?

Stephen

[NickyJay]

I don't buy CD's any more. I buy WAV/FLAC album files, or vinyl records when they're available.

Can you please tell us some good downloading sites from where to get (through purchasing of course) those WAV/FLAC albums?

Though I still find it impossible how it could ever replace the depth of the CD market. How can you possibly have the number of titles anywhere approaching the number of commercially available CDs?

Maybe in 20 years time it will happen. For now I just don't see it happening. But maybe I am behind the times, so I would greatly appreciate if you can give your sources for where you are purchasing your music from.

[stargazer_tom1]

Whats the point of all the extra resolution. 16bit/44kHz encapsulates all the information that people can hear (20Hz-20kHz)? Yes vinyl has frequencies past 40kHz but who can hear these? 16bit/44kHz is lossless the problem arises from AD conversion and DA conversion acoustic information can be lost at this step.

-Tom

[sfbp]

This thread on another forum makes the point that 24-bit A->D is way more important than eventual (gross) data rate.

There's nothing mystical about 14.4kbps/44Khz-FS/16bits. The thread essentially suggests that to the ear much lower data rates and higher bit depth will do more towards "real fidelity" (my quotation marks), than increasing the sample rate or sticking blindly to "uncompressed" audio. There are many 292kbps (or less) MD recordings that sound better than CD, and R.Daneel explains why.