Sony MDS-E12/MDS-E10 transplant/repair (project)

[kgallen]

Mod: Split to separate topic in MD/Technical.

 

 

Ooops. Another E12 S&R on the way...

[slugbahr]

10 hours ago, kgallen said:

Ooops. Another E12 S&R on the way...

How many does that make now 😉

[kgallen]

27 minutes ago, slugbahr said:

How many does that make now 😉

Shhhh 😄

 

Well it would be the 4th E12, but the theory is to try and make a good E12 from this bashed up one, plus my forever-faulty 2nd E10...

 

Unless it's really kn**kered in which case I have a box of spares (maybe!).

[kgallen]

On 9/1/2021 at 9:38 AM, kgallen said:

Unless it's really kn**kered in which case I have a box of spares (maybe!).

We’ll I’ve had two kinds of magic smoke… but there is hope. The E12 main board does boot.

 

That machine has seen some action that’s for sure.

 

Smoke #1: it’s been set on 120V for UK 240V use. The internal T1AL 20mm glass fuse was blown. The transformer windings did meter out reasonably and when powered the output voltages did measure at sensible values. But the transformer got hot and the fuse blew again so the enamel on the primary was probably damaged with the incorrect voltage setting. (ETA: Comparing with a good transformer, the secondary winding are all ok [as would likely be expected] but the primary windings are all shot to bits).

 

With the E12 main board in the chassis of my broken E10 (bust main board), it did power up and initialise the drive ok. 😃

 

Smoke #2: I tried to load a disc, but then there was some magic smoke from the drive motor driver IC (IC104) on the main board. Looking at the SM schematics, the Vin should be around 11.4V and with the incorrect region voltage switch setting, this could have been well over 20V. The Vin(max) for IC104 is 18V, so possibly it was damaged. There was a disc partially stuck in the drive so maybe the load motor had been running in this condition (looks like a belt replacement should sort that). Fortunately a component supplier on eBay has some LB1641 motor driver ICs, so I've ordered a couple. They are through hole (most of the PCB is SMT) so replacement should be viable. Also on that 11.4V rail is the main voltage regulator IC. Given the uC booted ok, I'm hoping this part has survived although it too has probably been over-stressed on the input as it's Vin(max) is even lower at 17V. This part doesn't seem to be available at RS/CPC/Farnell or eBay so if it fails I could be in trouble...

 

I do need to see if the VFD in the E12 is still ok. It's filament bias should be 30-40V ac but this could have been up at 60-70V...

[BearBoy]

Sounds like you've really got your work cut out with this one.

Good luck!

[kgallen]

25 minutes ago, BearBoy said:

Sounds like you've really got your work cut out with this one.

Good luck!

I think I will end up with a cut-and shut, using the E12 innards, but using the E10's PSU and maybe the drive, with the E12 lower chassis for the connector holes but the front panel, buttons and VFD from the E10.... cos frankly the E12 case is minging! 🤢

 

So then it will be an E12 that says E10 on the front!

 

When it boots it does say "MDS-E12" rather than "MDS-E12 PRO" so I'll be interested in whether the SCMS options are in the Setup menu (didn't have chance to check before the magic smoke) or if I need to do the resistor changes listed in the SM Supplement document...

[BearBoy]

23 hours ago, kgallen said:

So then it will be an E12 that says E10 on the front!

You've invented the E11😉

[kgallen]

OK, some mostly good news and some progress with the E12/E10 Frankenstein's monster project.

 

The LB1641 motor driver IC arrived this morning in the post (eBay littlediode_components - very fast, giving them a plug for good service here, and stocking the part at non-silly price). After a bit of a wrestle getting the smoked IC104 out of the E12 main board, the new one was fitted (an hour to get the old one out, a minute to solder in the new one and clean up...). Fortunately the PCB is a decent modern type - double-sided green solder resist, not one of those el-cheapo SRBP single-sided brown ones that came back in the MDS-x80 machines, so fortunately all of the PCB pads and traces held up with the abuse from the soldering iron.

 

So initially I tried it with the drive from the E10. No smoke (yet!). The machine booted up and initialised the drive. The drive took a disc (well with a little help - I needed to replace the belt I'd previously installed with one of those proper 17x0.8mm ones that Charlie at Linx Audio had made for us - all good now). Machine can read and play the disc! 🙂

 

This drive (from the broken E10) does have a few hiccups - initially it though the disc was write protected (it wasn't). The blue/white pin switches are intact and this issue went away (so far) when the ribbons were re-attached. I was able to change the disc title and successfully write the TOC. However I can't get into record with it. The deck will enter record-pause, but drop out of it after a few seconds. The drive will cycle the OWH head and look promising but something is causing it to abort.

 

The drive that came in the E12 is also interesting. With a new load belt it will load, read and play a disc ok, which is good news in part. However I think the OWH must be faulty as if I do any operation that writes the TOC, then the TOC is corrupted (laser heats the disc thus erasing the area, OWH does not reprogramme the magnetic domains). Ejecting and putting the disc back into the machine results in "Toc Error E14". The same happens with the disc when put in my MDS-JE530. However interestingly, my MDS-JE770 could read the disc. It seems the first track also got corrupted and won't play, but the other tracks on the disc are fine. By using the 770 to change the disc title and rewrite the TOC, the disc was recovered and would read and play in the 530 and the E12 drive (track 1 still corrupt, won't play, although the track title displays).

 

Regarding SCMS on the MDS-E12 main board. As noted above this machine boots saying "MDS-E12" not "MDS-E12 PRO". The Setup menu does *not* have the Copy Bit setting. Further, consulting the Service Manual Supplement, the main board already has the updated resistor configuration that is specified there (for certain Serial Number machines) to allow SCMS copy bit (or so I interpret from that manual). So this needs some more investigation to see if this is "old" firmware issue (which is likely unfixable) or another change is required to some resistor settings. Actually I need to try with both drives I have to see if this makes a difference - although from what I recall, this E10 is also "non-PRO"...

 

Well it's been playing a disc whilst I've been writing this, so it seems stable so far (E12 main board plus E12 drive in the E10 chassis).

 

Also of minor note: the E12 does seem an "early" version (although the Serial Number seems "reasonable"), as it uses the Sanyo LB1641 motor driver. Later units switched to a Rohm BA6209 part - these aren't interchangeable parts, there is a circuit change including what looks like a 2W resistor added, based on what I see in my other seemingly later build machines. This is also noted in the SM Supplement:

 

Next: I'll have some lunch then pile into Service Mode and take some stats and do some checks I think...

[kgallen]

On 9/1/2021 at 11:40 PM, kgallen said:

I do need to see if the VFD in the E12 is still ok. It's filament bias should be 30-40V ac but this could have been up at 60-70V...

The E12s VFD is fine. The AMS knob has had a whack and is bent and the push doesn’t work. All the other buttons seem ok although the play button is sticky.

 

Ive stripped the chassis apart to separate the base/rear from the minging front panel and given that a good scrub. Intention is to reassemble the E12 innards with the transformer and front panel from the E10 since the E12 has many more connectors on the back panel so I need to use that part of the case.

 

Mismatching will be the E10 logo and the input select:(optical/coax/analogue) on the E10 versus (digital[coax]/balanced analogue/unbalanced analogue) on the E12.

[Richard]

I'm always amazed by your technical knowledge Kevin and it's always fascinating reading these kinds of posts. I was always curious about the MDS-E12, but couldn't really think of any sensible place I could put one - how do you have it connected up to an amplifier? Via the analogue out / digital out? I would have no idea! 😆

[bluecrab]

This stuff about E* series pro vs. non-pro is news to me. My E10 (bought used from a musician) is decidedly Pro and says so. And discussions elsewhere regarding the E* series haven't revealed that lack of SCMS control. But since the subject is now out and about, I'm going to ask around a bit and see if that issue has been encountered somewhere.

[kgallen]

15 hours ago, bluecrab said:

This stuff about E* series pro vs. non-pro is news to me. My E10 (bought used from a musician) is decidedly Pro and says so. And discussions elsewhere regarding the E* series haven't revealed that lack of SCMS control. But since the subject is now out and about, I'm going to ask around a bit and if that issue has been encountered somewhere.

There have been a few questions on here and Tapeheads on this topic in the past 36 months or so that I’ve tried to contribute to. But we’ve (I’ve) never got a full handle on it. I believe all of my other E12/E10 say ‘pro’ so this is the first working specimen I have that doesn’t, and doesn’t have the Copy Bit menu item. I think I need to check all of mine and I’ll aim to report model/serial number/copy bit to see if there is a pattern. 

[kgallen]

10 hours ago, Richard said:

I'm always amazed by your technical knowledge Kevin and it's always fascinating reading these kinds of posts. I was always curious about the MDS-E12, but couldn't really think of any sensible place I could put one - how do you have it connected up to an amplifier? Via the analogue out / digital out? I would have no idea! 😆

Thanks Rich. I’m just stumbling about a bit really, I’m no service tech, but do seem to have a habit of wanting to fix up stuff! Good to hear I’m not boring the pants off everyone - documenting for fun and it might help out another user in a similar situation.

 

The E10/E12 aren’t ‘pretty’ decks so I wouldn’t expect ‘normal’ people to have them in their home rig. Since they are 1U rack mount I use them in a more ‘utilitarian’ way for music and sound effect cues for shows with my drama society(ies) where I do lighting and sound. (Although over lockdown I have had various machines in the room where I’ve been working from home, see other waffling posts!). So in answer to your question, they are not rigged up to an amp at home (indeed since the kids were young and poked the cones in my B&W DM550s I’ve not really had a home hifi setup of the proper kind - amp etc still in the loft - sad face.) So I guess for the most part when I’m using them for listening pleasure I’m using headphones.

 

Like many decks, E10 and E12 prices have gone silly barmy - don’t recall paying more than 85-100GBP for any of mine. This messy one was the first for a long time for ‘messing about’ money so I ummed-and-arrred for a few days then since no one else bought (for good reason!) I’d go on this journey with it.

 

I like learning new stuff about this kit and the recent playing about with the gold MZ-R700 and this broken E12, I’ve learned a few more things 🙂

 

Thanks for staying tuned!

 

(ps Anyone heard from @sfbp recently? I hope he’s ok. I PM’d him recently but didn’t get any sort of reply which is unusual).

 

Kevin

[kgallen]

Note also the OWH on the E12 drive checks out ok for resistance and is the same on the E10 drive. So the write problem on the E12 is down to some other problem…

 

We all least for now i have a ‘play’ deck. Hopefully the chassis parts have dried thoroughly over night so I’ll attempt an assembly some time today (although I really must do some ‘house’ jobs!!!)

[slugbahr]

On 9/3/2021 at 8:27 PM, BearBoy said:

You've invented the E11😉

Maybe reinvented the original one 😉

[BearBoy]

Oh. Haha. I didn’t realise there was an E11 😄

Renders my “joke” somewhat meaningless 😧

[kgallen]

1 hour ago, BearBoy said:

Oh. Haha. I didn’t realise there was an E11 😄

Renders my “joke” somewhat meaningless 😧

Sorry I thought you knew! 😄 E11 is a fairly old 1U "pro" deck, pre-MDLP with a green display. Not sure what ATRAC version as the SM doesn't have the drive schematics. Possibly ATRAC1 4.5, but I suspect earlier, as there is the MDS-E52 "pro" deck which is based on the 520 and thus ATRAC1 4.5. The E52 is 2U rackmount though. The E11 User Manual is dated 1998, the E52 also 1998. E10, E12 are from 2001 and are MDLP CXD2662 chipset on MDM7SC drives.

 

My mash-up will be an E12 (not PRO), just with an E10 front panel.

[kgallen]

Not too shonky finally. Parts stolen from the E10 are the transformer assembly, MDM7SC drive, front panel assembly. All of the metalwork is from the E12 but fully disassembled, cleaned and all of the sticky gunk and residue cleaned off (it had some microphone preamp module double-sided taped to the top and lots of those yucky foam-pad cable clips). Creases in it carefully removed with finger pressure and gentle ball-pein hammer on some small dents. I thought it might be too yucky to use but with a bit of elbow grease it’s come up quite ok, so is used. 

 

For some unknown reason it records ok now too! Can't figure the Copy Bit - must be different firmware in the later "PRO" models.

 

I need to do a proper check of all of the I/O at some point. These jobs go on forever!

 

 

Remaining ‘left over’ parts from the E12 were stripped and cleaned. Front panel itself is very bashed but all of the electronics attached to it seem fine (VFD, button PCBs, headphone PCB) and the metal front chassis is fine (not bent or rusty). I straightened the bent AMS spindle carefully in the vice and that seems ok now and the push function works (I thought I might have to try and identify the part and replace it. It looks like it might be a Bournes encoder but could be Alps. I had to do the same fact finding on my Tascam MD-CD1 as that did need a replacement for the MD pitch control). I might use the headphone PCB as the headphone socket on the donor front is a bit iffy.

[Richard]

Quote

The E10/E12 aren’t ‘pretty’ decks so I wouldn’t expect ‘normal’ people to have them in their home rig. Since they are 1U rack mount I use them in a more ‘utilitarian’ way for music and sound effect cues for shows with my drama society(ies) where I do lighting and sound.

 

That is a great, practical use for them, really interesting!

 

Quote

So in answer to your question, they are not rigged up to an amp at home (indeed since the kids were young and poked the cones in my B&W DM550s I’ve not really had a home hifi setup of the proper kind - amp etc still in the loft - sad face.) So I guess for the most part when I’m using them for listening pleasure I’m using headphones.

 

I was imagining you with a whole rack full of the things, hooked up to some wall-to-wall mixing desk, with lots of blinking lights.. 😁

 

Quote

(ps Anyone heard from @sfbp recently? I hope he’s ok. I PM’d him recently but didn’t get any sort of reply which is unusual).

 

Was thinking the same - haven't seen him for a while either.. Fingers crossed he'll be back soon.. 

[kgallen]

5 minutes ago, Richard said:

 

I was imagining you with a whole rack full of the things, hooked up to some wall-to-wall mixing desk, with lots of blinking lights.. 😁

 

Well usually they are hooked up to a Behringer X32 Compact digital mixing desk - now that does have a lot of coloured lights on it. I don't really have a photo of my sound setup for a show (I'm too busy!), but I'll see if I can find something for you Richard - won't be your standard of photo though!

 

I'm not sure I'll trust this "new" E12 for anything serious. However since it is an E12 and has the remote I/O ports, it will come in useful for when I get back to my DMX remote project. Means I'm not risking one of my decent machines should my coding not be quite what it should be!

[kgallen]

Just for you Rich. I don’t feel too bad saving this stuff from landfill, I know you lot are just as bad. And no, it doesn’t normally live on the house (well ok some of it does!). One on top being the latest addition.

Sorry for grainy photo, I’m shooting into the sun.

 

[Richard]

Looks great Kevin - fairly close to what I imagined! 🙂

[kgallen]

4 minutes ago, Richard said:

Looks great Kevin - fairly close to what I imagined! 🙂

Damn. Predictable! 😄

 

[Tascam 112 cassette deck was a machine I saved from the skip in a clearout - cleaned up, recapped and new belts and it's also 'good as new' :-) Everything else you've read about on here at some point!]

[kgallen]

On 9/4/2021 at 2:14 AM, bluecrab said:

This stuff about E* series pro vs. non-pro is news to me. My E10 (bought used from a musician) is decidedly Pro and says so. And discussions elsewhere regarding the E* series haven't revealed that lack of SCMS control. But since the subject is now out and about, I'm going to ask around a bit and if that issue has been encountered somewhere.

As promised:

 

"PRO" - have Copy Bit menu item in Setup:

MDS-E12 PRO, S/N: 500446, 502802, 503360

MDS-E10 PRO, S/N: 704658

 

"non-PRO", no Copy Bit menu item in Setup:

MDS-E12, S/N: 701332 (Flash "E10E12-449B 875983651") (this thread) <--- S/N not within range of SM Supplement (for E12). Resistors already correct.

MDS-E10, S/N: 702121 (Flash "E10E12-449B 875983651") (faulty main PCB, not functioning so can't use for any testing) <--- S/N within the range highlighted for the mod in the SM Supplement (for E10). It already has the resistors set per the SM Supplement mod, but I didn't make this change (R434 fitted, JW302 not fitted). [Other observation: this PCB has the Rohm device for IC104 which is described in the Supplement as used for later decks. This E10 is early for the SCMS change but late enough for the IC104 load/eject motor driver change.)

 

MDS-E12 has gold legends on the display, MDS-E10 has silver legends. Not clocked that difference before now. I though at first it might indicate early/non-PRO vs late/PRO models but it seems to follow E10/E12 instead.

 

What I haven't checked (yet) is whether the "non-PRO" E10 and E12 still ignore SCMS on the input, but just don't have a menu item to set the Copy Bit state as recorded to the track.

 

This was our other thread where this came up recently:

 

 

[kgallen]

Headphone socket is fine now: resoldered the pins on the headphone jack PCB. Joints can get cold fractures due to the stress of inserting/removing the jack plug. It is mechanically supported too, just not very well.

[sfbp]

11 hours ago, kgallen said:

(ps Anyone heard from @sfbp recently? I hope he’s ok. I PM’d him recently but didn’t get any sort of reply which is unusual).
 

I'm definitely here. A bit quiet as I am recovering from 3 weeks' hard graft after the ransomware attack (thankfully not my own systems).

 

The only odd thing is, no sign of a PM (nor an email since you know my address). Try again?

[M1JWR]

getting to be a serious collection you've got there kevin, getting as bad as all those repaired 470's ive got lying around here

[kgallen]

7 minutes ago, M1JWR said:

getting to be a serious collection you've got there kevin, getting as bad as all those repaired 470's ive got lying around here

Haha thought that might be the case! Happy to be in good company!

[M1JWR]

no probs, had nowt since that 440 a bit back, looks a bit dried up out there just now, maybe we've got them all,

i can side line to fixing hornby trains aswell from time to time, so the mind is occupied on these boring covid style evenings,

as one thing i believe on that is stay away from as many people as possible.

oh look i am a lance corporal now, rookie

[kgallen]

17 minutes ago, M1JWR said:

oh look i am a lance corporal now, rookie

Yea we all went back to Newbie! And it takes some fair old work to get up the ranks. I’m only a little ahead because Christopher bumped me on my MD-CD1 post a couple of weeks back.

 

Glad to see you back on here John! Tell us what you’ve been up to with your 470’s (not a model seen about much). Stick something on the ‘This week I’ve been…’ thread if you don’t think you have anything juicy enough for it’s own thread.

[M1JWR]

4 minutes ago, kgallen said:

Tell us what you’ve been up to with your 470’s (not a model seen about much).

could it be that ive got them all !!!!

will have a look at that thread, got that 440 and the previous 940 just sitting there, work's been busy, so havent done full tests on them.

i am off this week so will finally get a chance, did put some info in that 940 thread a while back.

[kgallen]

Here it is as it’s dropped off the top list:

 

 

[M1JWR]

ok will get back to you when ive tested these, i know the 940 will be spot on, the 440 so so

and another 440 that got the 940's original drive that had/has an owh problem

[bluecrab]

16 hours ago, kgallen said:

As promised:

"non-PRO", no Copy Bit menu item in Setup:

MDS-E12, S/N: 701332 (this thread) <--- S/N not within range of SM Supplement (for E12). Resistors already correct.

MDS-E10, S/N: 702121 (Flash "E10E12-449B 875983651") (faulty main PCB, not functioning so can't use for any testing) <--- S/N within the range highlighted for the mod in the SM Supplement (for E10). It already has the resistors set per the SM Supplement mod, but I didn't make this change (R434 fitted, JW302 not fitted). [Other observation: this PCB has the Rohm device for IC104 which is described in the Supplement as used for later decks. This E10 is early for the SCMS change but late enough for the IC104 load/eject motor driver change.)

 

This was our other thread where this came up recently:

 

 

Thanks, Kevin. Very GTK. Should I ever need to replace my E10, this information would be critical. It's nice to have both MD & CD (HHB) decks that can defeat SCMS, as I still have some MDs & CDs that have it. Now if only the E10 could strip SCMS on output...  😉

 

[kgallen]

4 hours ago, bluecrab said:

 

Thanks, Kevin. Very GTK. Should I ever need to replace my E10, this information would be critical. It's nice to have both MD & CD (HHB) decks that can defeat SCMS, as I still have some MDs & CDs that have it. Now if only the E10 could strip SCMS on output...  😉

 

To reiterate here what I found and documented on the SCMS thread:

 

"non-PRO" E10/E12 don't care about SCMS on the input SPDIF/TOSLINK. However they have no way to configure the copy bits on the recording, so the tracks have the same copy bits as the source, i.e. if the incoming signal is Copy Prohibit, then the recorded track is Copy Prohibit too. Note: I don't know what comes out on the output TOSLINK/SPDIF - I suspect the same as the source. The "PRO" versions of these decks allow you to set the recorded copy bits, e.g. the source has Copy Prohibit but you could make the recording Copy Permit or Copy PreRecorded. Again, I don't know what comes out on the output TOSLINK/SPDIF, could be as source or as recorded. That would be an experiment for another day!

[sfbp]

Indeed interesting. I gave up on owning a pro deck the day I got my Behringer 2496 Ultramatch Pro, which allows you to take any S/PDIF signal (coax or Toslink) and set whatever bits you want in it for output. Mind you, I don't have Kevin's use case (remote control in real time).

[BearBoy]

Another great restoration/transplant job, Kevin. And really useful information re the differences between the Pro and non-Pro versions.

 

On 9/4/2021 at 9:28 AM, kgallen said:

The E10/E12 aren’t ‘pretty’ decks

 

I actually think they look really smart in your racks, Kevin. I like "studio" looking gear though.

I did have a look on eBay a while back, after admiring them in one of your earlier posts, but the prices seemed pretty high (although what MiniDisc stuff isn't these days?) and I don't really have a need for the additional flexibility around SCMS (a bit like @sfbp and his Behringer, I can run mine via a Focusrite interface to make copies of SCMS protected MDs if I need to).

[kgallen]

I think when you have a collection of rack gear collected together in a rack then i agree I think it looks good in its own way (One lonely rack mount piece of gear does look a bit sad though!) Not ‘front room pretty’ though like the consumer decks!

 

I’m in two minds about juggling a few bits of the case now with this one since at least for now it’s working perfectly. I have a better top lid I can use. And in my OCD I’d also like to match up the case serial number with the main board - since really that is the correct combination re lineage. My working E10 has the main board from another deck so the serial number doesn’t match the heart of the deck. Just my OCD though!

 

E10 and E12 prices are silly at the moment. The messy E12 I bought was just at a level it was worth the punt for a broken unit, but I could easily have come off badly and I might yet come unstuck if the over-voltage event did deeper damage to the reliability. The drive from that unit won’t write so I don’t have a fully working MDM7SC drive spare.

[bluecrab]

On 9/5/2021 at 5:34 AM, kgallen said:

To reiterate here what I found and documented on the SCMS thread:

 

"non-PRO" E10/E12 don't care about SCMS on the input SPDIF/TOSLINK. However they have no way to configure the copy bits on the recording, so the tracks have the same copy bits as the source, i.e. if the incoming signal is Copy Prohibit, then the recorded track is Copy Prohibit too. Note: I don't know what comes out on the output TOSLINK/SPDIF - I suspect the same as the source. The "PRO" versions of these decks allow you to set the recorded copy bits, e.g. the source has Copy Prohibit but you could make the recording Copy Permit or Copy PreRecorded. Again, I don't know what comes out on the output TOSLINK/SPDIF, could be as source or as recorded. That would be an experiment for another day!

I have attempted to copy a Copy Prohibit MD from the E10, via optical out. Also tried by monitoring an protected digital incoming and passing through. Neither worked, even when the Copy Bit is set to Permit. But I wonder what the output signal would look like during actual copy-bit-permit recording. It's more or less academic to me at this point, but interesting.

 

I feel like the non-pro E10/12's ignoring the copy bit setting but keeping it intact is a bit nasty, although helpful, I suppose, in many cases. I seem to recall having read that Sony's so-called semi-pro PCM-R300 DAT deck had that same "feature."

[kgallen]

1 hour ago, bluecrab said:

Also tried by monitoring an protected digital incoming and passing through. Neither worked, even when the Copy Bit is set to Permit. But I wonder what the output signal would look like during actual copy-bit-permit recording. It's more or less academic to me at this point, but interesting.

Were you using monitor mode? I'm kinda surprised that the Copy Bit setting doesn't affect that, although I guess in reality I'm not that surprised as I guess they wouldn't want to make SCMS defeat too easy. I suspect even having this function on these decks was somewhat a compromise from the RIAA...

 

I suspect actual recording will be the same behaviour as monitor mode. But I'm just as likely wrong...!