MZ-RH10 & Mp3 Playback

[Fray Adjacent]

I can see it now.....

"Sony new In Car Hi-MD player, Output power 5.0mW per channel, euro model 1.0mW per channel"

Sorry, off topic but had to say it.

I have now given up on MP3 playback on the RH10 as I cannot get it to sound "right". I let SS convert all my MP3's into LP2 or Hi-LP depending on the source quality.

←

LOL about the head unit. It wouldn't surprise me if Sony did do something like that! I'd still love to have a car HiMD deck.

As far as the MP3s go, if you have the original CDs, and don't tend to change around what's on your discs frequently, I'd just use Simple Burner to rip straight to disc in ATRAC. Then you won't suffer any loss through transcoding.

[MDfreak]

I am wondering if maybe Sony licensed their firmware MP3 decoder from somewhere else....  I doubt that Sony would've spent the time writing their own.  They probably licensed the source code from a 3rd party, compiled it for HiMD, and burned it into the chips.

Perhaps the reason it seems that RH10's have the problem while the other units don't -- maybe they burnt the RH10 PROM's first.. discovered the problem and fixed it.... and then burned the PROM's for the other units.

I have worked in the contract assembly business in the past, and I've seen this kind of thing many times.  If Sony found a minor "bug" in the firmware after burning 100,000 chips and soldering them onto 100,000 main boards, they certainly would not have halted release of the units.

just speculation on my part.

←

About the mp3-license: when encoding audio-CD's to mp3 with SonicStage 3.1 the codec used appears to be the FhG (Fraunhofer) fastenc or mp3enc encoder (according to EncSpot pro: a program that analyses mp3's and can tell you almost always which codec was used during coding). That let's me think that Sony also licenses other mp3-related stuf (like the decoder in MD/CD/Network-equipment) from Fraunhofer.

[bug80]

About the mp3-license: when encoding audio-CD's to mp3 with SonicStage 3.1 the codec used appears to be the FhG (Fraunhofer) fastenc or mp3enc encoder (according to EncSpot pro: a program that analyses mp3's and can tell you almost always which codec was used during coding). That let's me think that Sony also licenses other mp3-related stuf (like the decoder in MD/CD/Network-equipment) from Fraunhofer.

←

AFAIK, Sony and Fraunhofer are in some audio related consortiums together (MPEG4, etc), so this would be a logical choice business wise.

[Flexis]

we give Sony untill the end of this month to come up with an official statement, in which they state that a nasty bug has made its way into the latest generation of minidisc players (or something), that makes MP3 playback sound bad compared to ATRAC. Sony should offer users a firmware upgrade (for free, of course) that fixes this issue.

If they don´t do this, we can send a message to all major technics & audio news sites (CNet and the like) in which we make clear that Sony most probably scr*wed its customers by degrading the MP3 decoder, to advertise their own ATRAC format. If I was working for Sony, I would not let it come to this point.

Let's do this,I really would like to see that happen !

An while there at it they should allow analog in recording on non hi-sp md too like the first gen unit's! (for me )

Edited June 10, 2005 by Flexis

[SilverBlade]

I can see it now.....

"Sony new In Car Hi-MD player, Output power 5.0mW per channel, euro model 1.0mW per channel"

Sorry, off topic but had to say it.

I have now given up on MP3 playback on the RH10 as I cannot get it to sound "right". I let SS convert all my MP3's into LP2 or Hi-LP depending on the source quality.

←

then..there would be no point in getting a 2nd gen unit (for myself) if the mp3's sound bad. Maybe I should get an mp3/cd player instead....

[MDfreak]

then..there would be no point in getting a 2nd gen unit (for myself) if the mp3's sound bad.  Maybe I should get an mp3/cd player instead....

←

Mp3's DON'T sound bad. They sound DIFFERENT than the ATRAC3plus. For the standard headphones indeed the mp3 sounds not so good but with certain headphones I have I do like the sound of the RH10 with mp3's better that with Hi-SP. With my Sennheiser MX400 en Sony MDR-G82LP headphones the mp3's sound good without EQ. The Hi-SP has to much highs with those headphones so I have to use the EQ with them.

So if mp3's sound good or bad just depends on your personal taste and the headphones you use. The sound itself is not distorted only the frequency-response with mp3's are different from the ATRAC3plus.

[Doerthe]

Mp3's DON'T sound bad. They sound DIFFERENT than the ATRAC3plus. For the standard headphones indeed the mp3 sounds not so good but with certain headphones I have I do like the sound of the RH10 with mp3's better that with Hi-SP. With my Sennheiser MX400 en Sony MDR-G82LP headphones the mp3's sound good without EQ. The Hi-SP has to much highs with those headphones so I have to use the EQ with them.

So if mp3's sound good or bad just depends on your personal taste and the headphones you use. The sound itself is not distorted only the frequency-response with mp3's are different from the ATRAC3plus.

←

Well, that is your opinion.........

Most of all the others say it's the other way around. Coincidence?

I don't think so. And I don't want to keep changing the earphones and EQ settings according to the order of the songs on my player.

You can say what you want - Sony did something wrong and the way I see it it's not good for them.

My next device will NOT be a Sony - I hope that's what they wanted to achieve...................

Edited June 13, 2005 by Doerthe

[MDGB2]

A car unit (able to play back mp3, even though it sucks) would be sweeet....

I currently have around 9 CDs in my very small glove box (now totally full!) and I could get all of them on a single Hi-MD disc! Need a car unit!

C'mon Sony! See sense!

(Then licence it out to Panasonic and other companies who will make the same units for a lot cheaper..... )

[MDfreak]

Well, that is your opinion.........

Most of all the others say it's the other way around. Coincidence?

I don't think so. And I don't want to keep changing the earphones and EQ settings according to the order of the songs on my player.

You can say what you want - Sony did something wrong and the way I see it it's not good for them.

My next device will NOT be a Sony - I hope that's what they wanted to achieve...................

←

I just want to say that the mp3-decoding isn't crap but that the frequency-response is different from ATRAC3.

Índeed this is not nice because you have to change the EQ to adapt for it. Furthermore I wrote an e-mail to the people I know @ Sony NL to ask how it is possible that the mp3's sound different and that the EU model does not have the custom EQ.

I agree that mp3-playback should sound the same as mp3's but as I have a RH10 now I'm not going to let it spoil my opinion about the RH10. It is a real nice machine and like every machine it has some drawbacks but I can live with it. Hopefully for future generations this problem will be fixed (or even better: update current models with new software).

Now I have a custom EQ for my headphones and I can enjoy my mp3's as much as I would do with their Hi-SP versions.

[FezzFest]

My RH710 (EU model) has it too, the crippled mp3 playback...

[stuffsnsuch]

Hi I'm new to this forum, been coming to minidisc.org quite often though.. great place!

i just recently bought a MZ-NH900 (few months before the MP3playback models came out! arrgh should have waited longer, having problem selling my unit now...)

i have LOTS of music collections that's ripped into MP3 via iTunes. I really hate the idea of having SonicStage convert my exisiting MP3 collection to ATRAC3 before i can use it on my MD. Hence the decision to get a MP3 playback MiniDisc! i'm considering to get a RH10 or RH910.

I've been reading how the quality of the MP3 seems poor when played back in the Minidisc.. my questions:

1) Can i just dump all the existing MP3 files into the Minidisc cartridge without converting?

2) Does the process takes long?

3) Is this done via SonicStage or is it like drag and drop?

4) which MD should i go for RH10/ RH910?

Appreciate any information provided regarding this, esp, those of you who have RH10/ RH910.

Thank you.

[The Low Volta]

1. if you mean "will these HiMD machines play unconverted MP3's?" the answer is: yes

2. about as long as transferring an atrac file (without conversion) I would guess, but I'm not really sure, as I do not own such a machine

3. either drag-n-drop as data (you can't play the file on the recorder) or as a music file but only through SS (so actually just like atrac files)

4. if you have the money, go for a RH10 Japanese import (beautiful OLED display and LCD-remote and charging stand), if not go for a RH10 non-imported (same OLED but non-LCD remote and no stand), if that is still over budget, get a RH910, which is still a very decent machine

just my quick answers though, others might disagree

greetings, Volta

[stuffsnsuch]

1. if you mean "will these HiMD machines play unconverted MP3's?" the answer is: yes

2. about as long as transferring an atrac file (without conversion) I would guess, but I'm not really sure, as I do not own such a machine

3. either drag-n-drop as data (you can't play the file on the recorder) or as a music file but only through SS (so actually just like atrac files)

4. if you have the money, go for a RH10 Japanese import (beautiful OLED display and LCD-remote and charging stand), if not go for a RH10 non-imported (same OLED but non-LCD remote and no stand), if that is still over budget, get a RH910, which is still a very decent machine

just my quick answers though, others might disagree

greetings, Volta

←

Hi Volta, thanks for your input. it's helpful!

Other comments/ clarification are welcome.

[corduroy]

2) Does the process takes long?

no, not so long. i use USB 1.1 and i think it's about twice the normal transfer time to another usb device. you have to consider also that there is a little time for the "system file writing" so less are the folder you transfer less is the time you lose

maybe with a usb 2.0 you'll lose less time to transfer the files

anyway the quality of mp3 it's not so bad and if you use the earphone that come with the unit you won't notice that big difference with atrac, using a custom equalizer (you can do it with japan model) you can set a good sound for you

i'm pretty happy with my unit except for the lack of pitch speed, timestamp and line out but they not so "necessary" for me

[The Low Volta]

i use USB 1.1 and i think it's about twice the normal transfer time to another usb device. ...maybe with a usb 2.0 you'll lose less time to transfer the files

I believe that all HiMDs only use USB1.1, so the USB port on your PC doesn't really matter

greetings, Volta

PS: @ stuffsnsuch: for more info on HiMD-models, use the equipment browser @ minidisc.org and the product reviews/pictorials here on MDCF or/and have a look around in the "find your minidisc" subsection of these forums... if you still have questions about the models please open a thread in that subsection...that way this thread stays focussed on the MP3-quality and such

[doomlordis]

Had anyone encoded using Sonicstage to MP3 and checked the Frequency difference between the original MP3 and the one on the player?

[Qwakrz]

Yes I have and the roll off at high frequency is still present when the MP3 is played back through my RH10 and the MP3>Atrac one sounds like the original.

[jay209]

it's hard for me to swallow the idea that sony forgot to do a cross test on a simple sample dB test across the frequency board.

long time lurker... was thinking about a rh10, but i guess i'm going to have to stick with my mini. damn... i was so hoping to make use of my OLd school MD's

[Syrius]

It is also suspected Sony did this on purpose to make the Atrac Codec sound better, by degrading the way MP3 is played. And knowing how stubborn some Sony engineers can be, I don't doubt it.

[doomlordis]

I dont think they did it on purpose, all it would achieve is to put people off buying it. It is more likely that MP3 playback was added when the design was almost complete without it and the components used are not up to the job.

You can achieve an exceptable frequency response (with no clipping) using equalizer (pic below - white noise 256kbps mp3 recorded from RH710 ), with this setting my wife couldnt spot the difference between rh710 and my flat response HD5 through my amp.

[attachmentid=824]

Edited September 5, 2005 by doomlordis

[UberKlavierMeister]

[...]

You can achieve an exceptable frequency response (with no clipping) using equalizer (pic below - white noise 256kbps mp3 recorded from RH710 ), with this setting my wife couldnt spot the difference between rh710 and my flat response HD5 through my amp.

[attachmentid=824]

←

This looks pretty good to me. I've had trouble finding an EQ setting I'm happy with on my American RH10. Would you mind posting what yours was on this test?

[greenmachine]

This looks pretty good to me.  I've had trouble finding an EQ setting I'm happy with on my American RH10.  Would you mind posting what yours was on this test?

←

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showt...indpost&p=70127

[doomlordis]

The graph i posted is 4khz up one notch and 10khz up three notches, i actually use 10khz up 2 even though 3 makes for a flatter response - i just find it a little sparkly on the treble and i like bass.

The graph in the link posted by greenmachine is 2 notches up on 10khz and 1 on 4khz

Edited September 5, 2005 by doomlordis

[PeterD]

well i have been on this topic..wondering if its true and sure enough my LAME mp3s sound like crap... sadly. this only means that now i need to re rip to Atrac3...big freakin deal. this dosn't make me hate Sony too much as i really like my RH10, it sounds great with Atrac files.

The only real gripe i have is that now i have only Sonic Stage to playback all my tunes...why not a winamp plugin or somehting...that would be nice.

[big_raji]

I just picked up an RH10, and given my NH600D to my girlfriend.

I want to be able to create MD's on my RH10 that are playable on the NH600D. I've chosen ATRAC3 132kbps as the bit rate. Most of my MP3's are 128kbps, with some 192kbps.

Unfortunately, my RH10 transfers the 128kbps MP3's without any conversion. Since they're still in MP3 format, they can't be played on the NH600D.

If I select Hi-LP mode, then Sonicstage will convert them, presumably because of the lower bitrate.

Is there any way of forcing Sonicstage to transfer a huge selection of MP3's and force it to convert them? I've figured out how to do it one track at a time, but that's really not an option for huge playlists.

[bobt]

Why not plug rhe 600 into your puter and record directly into the 600?

Just an ides.

Bob

[big_raji]

Why not plug rhe 600 into your puter and record directly into the 600?

Just an ides.

Bob

I've thought of that. My intention was to create discs for my GF, since she doesn't have a computer to do it herself. If I do what you suggest, then I can only create discs for her when she's over with her minidisc player. It's just too inconvenient.

Besides, playing with her minidisc is one of the last things I wanna do when she's over.

[Dimitri]

You should be able to force any bitrate for transfer in the settings, instead of using the 'as-is' option.

[big_raji]

You should be able to force any bitrate for transfer in the settings, instead of using the 'as-is' option.

Nah, tried that. Still transfers as MP3.

Tried it two ways:

1. On the "transfer" screen (with library on the left and device on the right) I clicked on "Settings" in the middle, and chose "Specified bit rate transfer mode." There is a disclaimer stating "If the bit rates of the transferred tracks are lower than specified, they will be transferred in their current bit rate." Basically, since my 128kbps MP3s are a lower bitrate than the 132kbps ATRAC3, the software will leave it as a 128kbps MP3. Please note that this menu is identical to the menu when you go to Tools -> Options -> Transfer -> Hi-MD -> Transfer Settings.

2. Tried the "Advanced" tab on the above mentioned menu, and chose "Convert Automatically and Transfer" and chose 132kbps ATRAC3. Still no luck. I even chose "Ask Each Time" and it never asked...? Even after deleting the temporary converted .OMA files from the temp directory.

I'm at a loss. I basically want to transfer my MP3's to my Rh10, but put them there in ATRAC3 mode. The only way I've been successful is to manually convert each track to ATRAC3, then move the original MP3 file so that Sonicstage can no longer find it.

Annoying as hell.

If I can't get this working, the Rh10 is going back. Part of the appeal of Minidisc is the ability to swap and trade discs. If my girlfriend has to bring her minidisc player to me anytime she wants some music on a disc, I might as well get her a cheap flash MP3 player.

[big_raji]

If I can't get this working, the Rh10 is going back. Part of the appeal of Minidisc is the ability to swap and trade discs. If my girlfriend has to bring her minidisc player to me anytime she wants some music on a disc, I might as well get her a cheap flash MP3 player.

Ah well, the RH10 is going back. I'm impatient and annoyed.

I can't believe there's no easy way to force Sonicstage to convert MP3s (128k) to ATRAC3 (132k)

Maybe I'll get her a Nano or something.

[atrain]

can't you just highlight a group of them & right click? you'll get a context menu which has 'convert' or 'convert format' just worked for me wiht mp3 192 to atrac3+192, 256 & 160

[ceekaydc]

Ah well, the RH10 is going back. I'm impatient and annoyed.

I can't believe there's no easy way to force Sonicstage to convert MP3s (128k) to ATRAC3 (132k)

Maybe I'll get her a Nano or something.

Hi, its my first time posting here.

I got my RH10 a few weeks ago. I've been trying out the various functions of the unit and Sonicstage.

Indeed Sonicstage is annoying with that aspect of MP3 transfer. While you can convert all your files from MP3 to Atrac 132, SS will still transfer as MP3 128. Very silly lowest denominator rule.

As you said earlier, you probably have to bulk convert the files and move the orginal files. Some suggestions here. You could place all the MP3 file in one folder. Convert. Rename the folder. That should force SS to use the converted files.

One point of note, apparently you can scan the folder with the converted files and SS will "import" those files. From Menu>File>Inport>Scan folder. Don't know how this helps.

Why would you want to get a Nano for her? After all you would need to do all the transfering (albiet possibly faster) while she is over....what you wanted to avoid Maybe give her the RH10...????

[big_raji]

Hi, its my first time posting here.

I got my RH10 a few weeks ago. I've been trying out the various functions of the unit and Sonicstage.

Indeed Sonicstage is annoying with that aspect of MP3 transfer. While you can convert all your files from MP3 to Atrac 132, SS will still transfer as MP3 128. Very silly lowest denominator rule.

As you said earlier, you probably have to bulk convert the files and move the orginal files. Some suggestions here. You could place all the MP3 file in one folder. Convert. Rename the folder. That should force SS to use the converted files.

One point of note, apparently you can scan the folder with the converted files and SS will "import" those files. From Menu>File>Inport>Scan folder. Don't know how this helps.

Yeah, that's what I've done so far. It's still more trouble than it's worth though. <sigh>

Why would you want to get a Nano for her? After all you would need to do all the transfering (albiet possibly faster) while she is over....what you wanted to avoid Maybe give her the RH10...????

Give her the RH10?!!? Gah! That's just not right.

Every man here knows that one of the only ways his girlfriend/wife will allow him to splurge on a newer version of "useless junk" is if she is interested in the original version of the "useless junk" as a hand-me-down.

All joking aside, I wasn't really going to get her a Nano. I just thought that comment might spur a bit of contraversy on here. Simply put, the RH10 doesn't meet my needs. My girlfriend needed a portable music player, and I already have a ton of minidiscs, so it seemed logical to get her another unit, so that we could swap discs whenever needed. Unfortunately, with MP3's on my RH10 MD's, we can't swap discs anymore.

I may pick up another 1st gen Hi-MD on eBay or something.

Thanks for the suggestions though.

-Raj

[alrose312]

Edited November 2, 2005 by alrose312

[syko]

After reading all of that, should I be glad I bought an MZ-RH1 instead of an RH10? It seems the mp3 playback is not worth it (and I also thought the remote was very scarce).

Too bad the RH1 only uses Li-Ion

[Deanage]

All joking aside, I wasn't really going to get her a Nano. I just thought that comment might spur a bit of contraversy on here.

What are you insinuating? That someone might post something anti-iPod? (readers of many of my previous posts would know what I'm talking about and how much I absolutely love to hate iPods).

I don't use MP3 as the quality is, for me, shite. If I were to use compression I would use WMA first then ATRAC3 but I can totally see why people are pissed, being forced into a format they might not want to use and all. It's like how you HAVE to use SS for MD on PC (or iCrash, erm, iTunes for iPod's. Just couldn't help myself ).

A big, fat MP3/WMA/WAV crack for SS is what's needed. Nice 'n easy formats to work with and the support base for all those formats is huge.

Edited November 3, 2005 by PCManiac

[jadeclaw]

WMA!?!?!

*goes off to vomit last weeks dinner*

Sorry, but WMA just doesn't cut it.

And talking about support base, WMA is MS-Windows only.

And where starting to see a shift away from MS-Windows.

Qualitywise, OGG and AACPlus take the top spot, followed by Atrac and MP3(Lame-codec used).

Plus, OGG plays on any system and is completely free.

Not only free as in free beer, but also free as in free speech.

[Deanage]

WMA has a "lossless" (oxymoron alert!) mode, MP3 does not.

How many people download a seperate compressor for music when free Windows Media Player (10) can do MP3 and WMA? Also, with WMA being Windows only, I guess that that means only 95-96% of the computer market can use it then.

Go out and ask Joe Blow what OGG Vorbis is and they'll probably look at you weird.

AAC is basically Apple's version of ATRAC, except it sounds like MP3 i.e. CRAP. It's not even subjective; MP3 sounds crap, end of story. It's only real use is on file-sharing networks and music download sites which screw the people too stupid to demand a better file type and compression ratio or a WAV option.

[FezzFest]

Yeah, that's what I've done so far. It's still more trouble than it's worth though. <sigh>

Give her the RH10?!!? Gah! That's just not right.

Every man here knows that one of the only ways his girlfriend/wife will allow him to splurge on a newer version of "useless junk" is if she is interested in the original version of the "useless junk" as a hand-me-down.

All joking aside, I wasn't really going to get her a Nano. I just thought that comment might spur a bit of contraversy on here. Simply put, the RH10 doesn't meet my needs. My girlfriend needed a portable music player, and I already have a ton of minidiscs, so it seemed logical to get her another unit, so that we could swap discs whenever needed. Unfortunately, with MP3's on my RH10 MD's, we can't swap discs anymore.

I may pick up another 1st gen Hi-MD on eBay or something.

Thanks for the suggestions though.

-Raj

I had the same problem, but since I use Sonicstage 3.3 every file is automatically converted to ATRAC3 132kbps during transfer, even the 128kbps MP3's... You only have to specify in the transer-options screen you want to use always ATRAC3 132kbps

[AMPlitude]

ipod nanos are much more user friendly just from the fact that itunes is more intuitive than sonicstage is