Hi-MD, Bye-MD?

[Christopher]

Update: Nothing was specifically mentioned at the Sony Group's Fiscal Year 2005 Corporate Strategy Meeting webcast on 9/30. Judging by the focus of the webcast, it was clear as to what Sony's immediate future will be, and I can honestly say I do not see MD in the equation. The 15 divisions of Sony that will be terminated are going to be revealed by Sony very soon. More information will come in this thread, as it arrives.

It is becoming clear with the recent restructuring of Sony that the Minidisc format may soon become extinct. Hell, QUALIA's out the door, what's really stopping us from thinking MD isn't next?

Even in Sony's Annual Report for 2005, which in every previous year has featured a MD unit mentioned positively or pictured in one form or another, cited:

In the portable audio market, trends and ways of enjoying music are changing rapidly as consumer preferences shift from CD-based and MD-based products to those with flash memory and HDDs. In spring 2005, we released our latest Network Walkman, reinforcing our lineup of Walkman portable audio products in the Japanese market, which until then comprised the CD Walkman and the MD Walkman. The Network Walkman, available in both flash memory and hard disk models, enjoyed strong sales.

Reliable sources within Sony that have given me consistant and 100% accurate information in the past, recent documents that have been passed along my way, and the blantant obviousness of Sony's direction from not only the recent webcast along with their Annual Report for 2005 and other various public presentations have given a clear indication as to what's going to occur to the format. Right now there's a very slim chance that Hi-MD may even see a third generation, and if it were, it would probably be the definitive last. I'm not so sure anymore that the Connect Player will even support MD. There's something else on the horizon now, a unified approach. I can't say any more than this, but it will boil down to one of these scenarios, trust me: (I) Minidisc is no longer developed, focus on other products and introduce similar functionality. (II) Put a radical spin on MD (Video, DVR, etc) and see what happens.

Regardless, fifteen years is a damn short product lifecycle. If they had played the market a little more efficently and not fallen into the deep hole that Sonicstage was, it would've been different. But alas, such is life, such is Sony.

[sant430_]

It is becoming clear with the recent restructuring of Sony that the Minidisc format may soon become extinct. Hell, QUALIA's out the door, what's really stopping us from thinking MD isn't next?

Right now there's a very slim chance that Hi-MD may even see a third generation, and if it were, it would probably be the definitive last. I'm not so sure anymore that the Connect Player will even support MD. There's something else on the horizon now, a unified approach.

I can't say any more than this, but it will boil down to one of these scenarios, trust me: (1) Minidisc is no longer developed, focus on other products and introduce similar functionality. (II) Put a radical spin on MD (Video, DVR, etc) and see what happens.

Regardless, fifteen years is a damn good product lifecycle. If they had played the market a little more efficently and not fallen into the deep hole that Sonicstage was, it would've been different. But alas, such is life, such is Sony.

With all the different people saying MD was on its way out, I never really gave it much credibility since somebody's ALWAYS saying MD is dead. When I hear news like this from you, I know it's not a good day.

I just hope they choose to revitalize MD/Hi-MD

[Christopher]

Well, it's hard to really see any change especially as it gets pulled out of more and more retail areas.

[Andicillo]

...BUT WHY????

I just ask myself and I can't understand.. they are killing one of the best things they did!!!!!!!!!!! I can't understand!!

[doclloyd]

It is sad to read this, even if it's not totally confirmed.... it's like much of Sony's doings lately... they don't advertise anything! I work in the IT dept. for a marketing/promotions company. A current client wonders why nobody is visiting a new site we did for them. Well, they put out almost no budget to advertise it. Funny thing happens when you don't tell anybody about a product or fail to spend money to promote it: nobody knows about it, it doesn't sell and then they scratch their heads wondering why it failed.

Perhaps it's speaking to a deaf audience at Sony, but with ALL their products, not just MD, *START ADVERTISING!* People will actually know what you have instead of forcing them to go to a SonyStyle store in only a few markets or make them visit your website. Let's hope something smart happens for Sony out of this whole shake-up with the new CEO...

[Sparky191]

I'd say they'll make a recording unit with a HD in it.

[Mr_Bass_Man]

I'd say they'll make a recording unit with a HD in it.

... and then they'll cripple it with DRM and Sonic Stage ...

Game Set and Match to the "recording IPod" (bound to come!)

[bland10000]

This is probably splitting hairs but when you say "stop development" what do you mean exactly? 1) That Sony will no longer invest in pushing the technology further or 2) Sony will no longer invest in pushing the technology further and will cease to produce any models utilizing the current technology.

There are several million bookshelf and boombox systems in homes here that have md record/play integrated into the system. To cease production of portable units is to outdate the current in-home capability of the systems. Without the future possibility of obtaining a new portable player, recordings made from radio, cd and dvd would then be limited to in-home use only.

[Breepee2]

Why oh why is Sony silent about this?

[Christopher]

Expect an official announcement soon.

[jadeclaw]

Well, that gives me two choices:

Either I'll stock up on discs and players, so I'm independent for the next ten years -

Or I dump everything now on eBay with a small loss on the recorder and no loss on the discs and go DVD/HD-DVD in the future.

Since I use MD only at home, I wouldn't lose much functionality, except that I have to invest about 60 Euros for a decent DVD-Player.

However, with DVD/HD-DVD I could ditch Windows immediately...

So, what should I do?

( Before someone get me wrong, I want to stay with MD, but I need assurance, that discs and spare parts/service are available for the foreseeable future. )

[Skradgee]

Noooooooo! Damnit. Doclloyd is right, Sony should have advertised! How many more people would have gone Hi-MD vs. iPod if people knew that they could record with it. I guess if we get a new product with similar functionality it'll be OK if minidisc is dropped, right? Regardless, I won't be unloading my Hi-MD stuff right away.

[sebastianbf]

This is probably splitting hairs but when you say "stop development" what do you mean exactly? 1) That Sony will no longer invest in pushing the technology further or 2) Sony will no longer invest in pushing the technology further and will cease to produce any models utilizing the current technology.

Good question, any answer/info about this?

[jadeclaw]

By the way, similar discussions have started over at the AIBOard,

since the pooch will possibly be sacked as well:

http://bbs.aibosite.com/index.cgi?read=48930

Starter was this Times-Article:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,...1788612,00.html

Some observers believe that Thursday’s announcement will see the company definitively lose its “Japaneseness” as it ditches businesses such as robotics, for which it has long had emotional attachments.

[raintheory]

[veezhun]

september 26th... a day that shall be remembered in infamy

chris, i feel happy and sad. happy that i bought the rh10.. sad because MD is dying...

somewhere, i think sony will consider using the MD as a pro recorder of choice.. hope that happens

[lamewing]

After much thought and trial I have ended up with a Cowon X5L and a MZ-NH1. It looks like it its time to invest in another couple of recorders to last me until sony comes directly to my home and takes a sledgehammer to them.

Of course if Sony just keeps one "pro" unit I would be happy. Especially if it is of high quality parts, metal casing, full bells and whistles. I am sure many of use would buy them. We will see.

Kurisu, what made you decide to post this thread? Any news we aren't aware of?

Joe

Edited September 26, 2005 by lamewing

[plr]

fifteen years is a damn good product lifecycle

Just bought myself a new turntable for playing records.

"Disc records were invented by Emile Berliner in 1888, and were used exclusively in toys until 1894, when

Berliner began marketing disk records under the Berliner Gramophone label. In the mid-1910s, disk records

overtook cylinders in popularity, and would dominate the market until the 1990s" (Wikipedia)

lp's are still manufactured and sold by the millions.

100+ years and still going strong. Now, *thats* a pretty good product lifecycle ... :-)

Well, maybe it's Reel 2 Reel for me then, although they'd be heavy to carry.

-mike

Edited September 26, 2005 by plr

[garcou]

What could prevent music editors from making prerecorded Hi-md?

no ability of glass mastering?

But prerecoded are still edited and they need real time recording!

With pcm quality, it would be worth for md and music lovers- and for me! more that prerecorded CD.

But Sony loves losing money.

ERRATUM! OUPS!

What could prevent music editors from making prerecorded Hi-md?

no ability of glass mastering?

But prerecoded TAPES are still edited and they need real time recording!

With pcm quality, it would be worth for md and music lovers- and for me! more that prerecorded CD.

But Sony loves losing money.

[bobt]

What I have read in the press releases is tha want to keep the walkman line going, and I include MD in the walkman line.

JMHO

Bob

[Guest bmn38]

It might just be that they drop the download-only NetMD products in favor of HD/solid state players and use MD only for field recording devices aimed at the professional/semipro market.

[sebastianbf]

What could prevent music editors from making prerecorded Hi-md?

no ability of glass mastering?

Maybe the media is too expensive if you compare with something like a cd.

[jadeclaw]

That's correct.

Plus, CD-Players are ubiquitous.

[A440]

Qualia was preposterous and overpriced, for people with more money than brains. AIBO was an engineers' indulgence. But minidisc actually had real-world uses.

Maybe we should count ourselves lucky that before Sony ditched MD, they almost got it right: high-capacity media, PCM recording, backlit recording remote (almost), uploading of original recordings that can shed the DRM. Even Mac compatibility. Years too late, it's a useful format, though it's still so technically convoluted that it could never compete in an iPod world.

The real villains in the minidisc saga--and they are as venal as they are stupid--are the fools at Sony Music: the ones who see a piracy threat in every new technology that might lose them a few dozen CD sales, but who don't mind wasting millions of dollars in payola to get Jennifer Lopez on the radio. If they had their way, CDs would self-destruct after two plays and you'd have to buy a separate copy of any song you wanted to hear in your car. It's their short-sightedness and greed, and their fear and contempt of their customers, that crippled minidisc and may now have killed it.

And in the meantime, Sony sells countless VAIO computers with CD burners.

I've got 2 Hi-MD recorders. By the time they wear out, I expect that someone will have come up with an iPod Nano-sized compact-flash recorder that takes removable, cheap 100 GB discs; has a readable remote; gets MD-like battery life and treats its recordings as drag-and-drop files. For all I know, it will also be a cell phone and wireless PDA, a camera and a mini-accordion. I don't expect it will be by Sony.

[garcou]

[Maybe the media is too expensive if you compare with something like a cd./quote]

[Plus, CD-Players are ubiquitous.quote]

but , real time-prerecorded tapes are still edited. are they not to expensive?

If you could buy some your favorite music in pcm Hi-md, it would be more ubiquitous: tape succes was made of resistant , car audio ability and prerecorded items.

I 've heard that, to assure audio tape wordwide success, PHILLIPS, in the 70'S, give up his copyrignts of inventors. Will SONY make the same with Hi-md instead of killing it?

[jadeclaw]

but , real time-prerecorded tapes are still edited. are they not to expensive?

Here the installed user base counts.

Tape players are ubiqitous. And tape players are still sold -

even Sony has a component deck and 11 different Walkmen.

And mass copying is relatively cheap, especially because the quality of the tape used.

Yes, don't even expect LowNoise or LH-Tape...

If you could buy some your favorite music in pcm Hi-md, it would be more ubiquitous: tape succes was made of resistant , car audio ability and prerecorded items.

The problem is, HiMD-discs cannot be stamped like CDs.

Reason: The magnification layer, which is used to get the recording density.

So, prefab-HiMD is impossible. And the discs are simply too expensive,

ten times more expensive than good chromium cassettes.

I 've heard that, to assure audio tape wordwide success, PHILLIPS, in the 70'S,

give up his copyrignts of inventors. Will SONY make the same with Hi-md instead of killing it?

We don't know, if Sony drops the format, it would be a good thing to do.

However, in the 70's, the world + dog wasn't that crazy about 'Intellectual property'

and there are third party patents involved in HiMD,

which could make it impossible to dedicate the format.

[hobgoblin]

hmm, what about buffalo? they licenced the tech right? anyone knows what happend to that player? will sony force them to stop using the hi-md tech?

and if not, cant they fill the void, that is if they feel there is a market for it?

[Petter156]

Even if minidisc isn´t doing nearly as well as portable MP3-players it seems stupid to drop MD completely as it is - still after 15 years - a very usable format. Minidisc is IMO superior for fieldrecording and hobby-type recording. If only Sony would market one of their greatest creations better the situation might be different.

If MD really is as widely used in proffesional situations as it seems, it´s unlikely that Sony will just completely slash MD at once.

[mdmania]

Even if minidisc isn´t doing nearly as well as portable MP3-players it seems stupid to drop MD completely as it is - still after 15 years - a very usable format. Minidisc is IMO superior for fieldrecording and hobby-type recording. If only Sony would market one of their greatest creations better the situation might be different.

If MD really is as widely used in proffesional situations as it seems, it´s unlikely that Sony will just completely slash MD at once.

Since Hi-MD is capable of doing PCM recording, I think Sony is confident and ready for professional use such as field recording, journalism and personal home recording device. I have a M10 and I love the result of PCM recorded on it. I really think that this is the next DAT, not in obsolete way but more like for the quality sound of it that will offer.

[petrucellij]

I don't think the Minidisc is on its way out . I just received an exchange unit from sony 9/23 . I purchased the oringinal unit on ebay defective from deal tree and sony exchanged it no questions asked . It occured to me that sony seems to be having many problems with the quality of the MD units . I think sony is going to stream line its MD product line and tighten up its quality . This in the end would reduce service costs .

Another reason why sony would not drop the MD format is there would be no digital recorders in its line up . I have not seen an I pod or any other mp3 player which can digitally record for a significant period of time.

I would expect a thinner and or higher end MD lineup . Has end users we only see retail side of the product not realizing that MD format , Digital tape (DAT) is a big part of recording studios' equiptment . For example before CD are mastered there are created and mixed on DAT - Digital Audio Tape . Sony beta max format , for many years was used by news reporters to record footage in the field.

[Sparky191]

Radio stations use them for jingles and adverts don't they?

[Mr_Bass_Man]

That's correct.

Plus, CD-Players are ubiquitous.

... unless of course it is an "ATRAC CD-Player"

A short time ago, I bought, for a very reasonable price, off EBay a "Sony Refurbished" CD-Player with MP3 and ATRAC playback capability.

Great!

Sounds good, looks good, I'm a happy bunny.

That is until I try to make an ATRAC CD.

Whereas in "vanilla" CD mode, it makes a good job of playing CDs (Does CD-Text as well).

It can read CD-RW, so I drag a few MP3's onto the CD-RW with Windows Explorer, and it plays those no problem (a very handy feature for me).

Now, what do you do with ATRAC files, drag them onto the CD-RW with Windows Explorer? No sir.

Use my already-installed Sonic Stage 3.2? No luck there, locks my PC up solid

Install the supplied Simple Burner? Well this time I can't get the CD song titles from CDDB ...

... so I don't even try - it's all just too much like hard work!

Forget ATRAC, forget all the debate about whether or not ATRAC sounds better than MP3, just give up and drag those MP3s with Windows Explorer ...

Life is too short for DRM.

And, it is crippling Sony's brilliant engineering, as someone else has so rightly said elsewhere in this thread

[Sparky191]

....

Use my already-installed Sonic Stage 3.2? No luck there, locks my PC up solid

Install the supplied Simple Burner? Well this time I can't get the CD song titles from CDDB ...

... so I don't even try - it's all just too much like hard work!

....

Thats has nothing to do with DRM, thats simply software thats not working. But granted Sony has taken too long to sort it out.

[Mr_Bass_Man]

Thats has nothing to do with DRM, thats simply software thats not working. But granted Sony has taken too long to sort it out.

Of course you are correct, but I am suggesting (I may be wrong of course!) that the "obsession" with "managing digital rights" has resulted in software which falls way below the expectation of most users in terms of "user appeal".

Even clunky old Real Player tries to give MD (unfortunately not HiMD) users a taste of "dragging and dropping" from their computers onto their mobile device (notwithstanding DRM issues of course!!) whilst the MP3-player fraternity have pretty well had that from Day One.

But you encode those same files as ATRAC and convenience just flies out of the window, IMHO.

[garcou]

The problem is, HiMD-discs cannot be stamped like CDs.

Reason: The magnification layer, which is used to get the recording density.

So, prefab-HiMD is impossible. And the discs are simply too expensive,

ten times more expensive than good chromium cassettes.

OK if you buy your discs at street stores in France, you pay 10 € (12 US$)

But we can find HI-md for 3,82 AUD (2,9 US$) at this shop:

e-shop

this signifies that Sony can produce discs for less that 2 US$ each, and mass production can provide great reduction (at the beginning tapes weren't very cheap; 2 years ago dvd-r blanks were commercialised at 10 USD each)

Considering that prerecorded CD are sailed 15 US$, hi-md prerecorded shouldn't cost more that 17 US$, which don't make many difference...

[PeterD]

This topic is depressing...i just got my Hi-MD player...now there dumping it...

that blows...time to look for cheap disks and use it till it dies

[lamewing]

This topic is depressing...i just got my Hi-MD player...now there dumping it...

that blows...time to look for cheap disks and use it till it dies

I just decided to "stick it to the man (right!)" and say no to the iPod. I just started picking up extra discs and players/recorders to last me the next 15 years. By then I will have my own portable jet pack and will have more important things to do then worry about MD.

[Reyemmicha]

Radio stations use them for jingles and adverts don't they?

Wohoo, where do you live? In stoneage? No radio station in the world uses cart machines or Md units for jingles or adverts. It's all about Musicam or Mp2, all packed to together in one big database system. MD units are only used by reporters.

[mdmania]

Another reason why sony would not drop the MD format is there would be no digital recorders in its line up . I have not seen an I pod or any other mp3 player which can digitally record for a significant period of time.

Good point! And another point I would like to make, as a user of both format such as MD and iPod, I realized that both have their application. Both formats have Pros and Cons. I think MD's main strength is to able to record with various ways. While iPod is mainly for listening pleasure. That is my take on it...others might have a different insight on it.

[raintheory]

Wohoo, where do you live? In stoneage? No radio station in the world uses cart machines or Md units for jingles or adverts. It's all about Musicam or Mp2, all packed to together in one big database system. MD units are only used by reporters.

Hmmm... 18,000 or so registered users in this forum. Think they are all reporters?

Seriously though... I do hope that somebody at Sony comes to their senses a bit and they at least continue development of MD/HiMD for the sake of LIVE RECORDING... When I bought my first MD recorder (also thee first MD recorder) I wasn't thinking at all about mp3 drag & drop, drm, or heck even a computer at all. I was thinking about plugging in a microphone and recording, without having to worry about tape hiss or wow/flutter.. The live recording bit is what sold me, and it's also what has kept me. If all I was worried about was listening to mp3s, there are plenty or reasons whyan ipod would make more sense to me. For me, MD is and has always been about high-quality recording. I'm not saying that I do not enjoy having the ability to transfer mp3's to my rh10 and listen to them.. . sure, it's convenient... but it's not why I bought the thing.

It just wouldn't make sense to me if Sony decides to drop the format because it can't compete with iPod... Bottom line is, they were both invented/conceptualized for different purposes and it doesn't make sense to discontinue a product because something that was made to do something else sells better.

Just my opinion though.

Oh and I do know of more than a few radio stations that use MD...

Edited September 28, 2005 by raintheory