Do you think there will be a new HI-MD Computer Drive from Sony?

[viiv]

Having missed out on purchasing the now discontinued Sony DS-HMD1, do you think they discontnied it because of a new one coming out or do you think that is the first and last HI-MD drive to ever be made from Sony? I was thinking maybe they would have discontinued it to make a new one with the new features of the MZ-RH1/M200 such as USB 2.0 for faster transfers, uploading of legacy tracks and compatibility with that upcoming Mac program. What do you guys think?

[pata2001]

Short answer, no. Sony has lifted many DRM restrictions on MD/HiMD with the RH1. Releasing a PC drive would anger the music/movie execs more, and they would veto the product from being released in the first place.

[Sparky191]

Why not just use a NH600?

[MDGB2]

IMHO the absense of PC drives is one of the features (along with home decks) which is holding the format back. I would kill for a internal Hi-MD drive, ideal for data & backups.

Yes I know MD DATA drives made it to Japan, but not outside that market. Everyone else missed out. Also an ideal storage solution for portable devices like digital cameras (remember the Sony floppy disk digi cam??). Despite solid memory prices tumbling, Hi-MD can still be a market leader in what it can offer.

And the copyright protection brigade can go forth. CD-R/DVD-R are so common anyway and have no copy protection, so I doubt unrestricted MD would cause a stir (unless it became really popular, which would be a good thing!).

Edited July 13, 2006 by MDGB2

[Sparky191]

Sony could push it as a cheap floppy replacemtif they made the drives cheap enough.

[Tunster]

There really needs to be a replacement for the 3 1/2 floppy drives. Companies are now compiling machines without them and is a shame.

MD could be its successor is Sony really wanted to put money into it. This would allow a regeneration of the MD format, and at the same time will be great for uploading audio as music for MD audio fans (like us!).

Sony then could lease out the technology to other companies, driving the cost of MDs down even further than they are now.

I can't see why not. MDs are smaller and much much more durable than the bog standard floppy. Also, 1GB (or even the older discs at 200MB~ isn't bad a size) of data storage is extremely attractive.

Who wants to start a petition?

[garcou]

yes and MD is the most secure ( long life storage) media.

Edited July 14, 2006 by garcou

[tekdroid]

hate to say this, but that ship has sailed.

MD is still slower than a Zip disc.

Sony tried with MD Data. It didn't fly against the Zip disc, LS-120 or competition from SyQuest at the time, and it won't now. How would the masses take to the low speeds? Plus the average user can't appreciate the advantages of magneto-optical mediums, longevity and so on. They can definitely appreciate drag-n-drop tho. But they get that with so many other devices these days, not the least of which are their tiny flash-based walkmans. I don't see it catching on unless drives were around 20 bux and (Hi-MD) media a lot cheaper - and even then it would be an uphill battle against the more universal compatibility and rock-botton prices of CD/DVD recorders and USB sticks (which definitely have the size advantage, let alone speed).

Regular MD blanks seem to be priced reasonably tho (and are certainly far easier to find than Hi-MD, even though finding them can be difficult, too), and may be enough space for many tasks, but MD is still far slower. That also prohibits their use in any modern higher-megapixel digital cam. Saves are stoo slow, MD media makes cam too big and 1GB flash is routine and has had massive price drops recently. Anyhooo, Low-cost CD/DVD and USB drives completely killed the 'floppy replacement' market. The floppy has essentially been replaced, but reliance on it has not totally faded (unfortunately).

DVD-RAM has all the goods to be a low-cost, faster speed, modern drag-n-drop successor, but most are ignorant of the format's strengths, and it's just too bad nobody but Panasonic seems to make the superior cartridge-based drives, and even then they are hard to get (or hideously overpriced), unless you're in Japan. And of course they are not as small as MD or USB sticks. Drives that write to the bare discs have become very common now, though. Unfortunately, Matsushita (Panasonic) are the only ones making a decent UDF driver (to format the discs with the superior UDF, not crappy FAT).

Perrsonally? I wouldn't risk my mangement job at Sony saying the public needs another Hi-MD data drive or Hi-MD Photo camera. The products may be cool, but they don't offer anything really compelling to the average person (unless offered at the Right Price . The Hi-MD Walkmans have faaaaar broader appeal, and if they're not selling well enough, wellllll.... it speaks volumes about other niches. Even though I think it would be interesting to see how low they could price an internal data drive without display/mic/optical/headphone/remote/miniaturisation constraints (but with cool, convenient, fast motorised insert/eject)

[Sparky191]

To be honest anyone thats saving small amounts of data and won't be effected by the HiMD slow speeds, isn't going to need 1GB of storage. A CDRW/DVDRW drive is faster and more useful for the majority of people.

[robo11]

I don't know if anyone noticed this, but having to use MD's or Hi-MD's as backup formats increases the incidence of added security with another layer of protection. Add encryption to the mix and you have a powerful backup medium in the MD format.

Things that are less popular among the MP3 saturated consumers, will work in our favor. I'm glad the MD format hasn't saturated the market to the not so savvy. It allows me as a user to have more choice.

Every Joe and his dog has a DVD drive or access to a USB drive, security and data security is a big issue these days. MD's are perfect for people who don't want identity theft, and who would like a more secure/robust backup medium.

The MZ-RH1 has overcome some speed issues via USB, and i'm sure having something close to USB2 speeds will suffice for many users.

So i'm with the original poster. However I prefer just to backup to MD on a portable medium. It's no big deal just to plug and play. Given this, Sony won't release a Hi-MD 3.5" drive for computers, let alone standalone drives. Which I believe to be a good thing.

Many criminals and social engineers would love to get their hands on unencrypted usb keys or dvd's that have vital data on them. But would they consider a Minidisc to hold valuable information, and would they in turn have readily accessible MD hardware to access such data. Of course this isn't valid for a high end corporate backup model, however in the personal backup arena I'd say with an informed decision that with the inception of the RH1 this is very valid.

[pata2001]

Sony could push it as a cheap floppy replacemtif they made the drives cheap enough.

There is already a replacement for floppy disks, it's USB flash drive. They are small, re-writable, large enough to contain an OS, and fast enough for speedy data transfer. Newer BIOSes even enable booting from these USB flash drives. Their $/GB is not as cheap as MD/HiMD, but their much faster data transfer rate easily compensate that drawback.

Add encryption to the mix and you have a powerful backup medium in the MD format.

Many criminals and social engineers would love to get their hands on unencrypted usb keys or dvd's that have vital data on them.

Use Truecrypt with its travel mode, and any USB key can be secure. You can even use Truecrypt, and burn the image file to CD/DVD, and the will be truly secure. MD is actually a poor backup device, considering its slow data transfer rate and propietary technology (what if sony decided not to make any HiMD units anymore). I know that my backup on CDs and DVDs will be readable on future optical drives.

Edited July 15, 2006 by pata2001

[Sparky191]

Robo11 - you are talking about Security through Obscurity. Which at best is very very weak security. A strong system is better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_through_obscurity

My backup at home is around 200GB at this point. Photos, music, video, docs, source code etc. HiMD isn't feasible for that.

[robo11]

Just so my previous post is a bit more clearer, I did not mention large backup procedures. Only security through obscurity as it has been coined via means of personal information - to prevent identity theft. Obviously I wouldn't backup everything I own onto a Minidisc. I too have a reasonable External Hard Drive for that reason.

IMO, Hi-MD is feasible if you have constantly-changing, small amounts of information you need stored. Hard Drives fail, much like anything else. But even though Hi-MD's may be proprietory, there is still a chance of failures, pros/cons and risks in any devices no matter what you use.

The idea is that the medium must be strong in the long-term. (re: MD whitepaper on longevity). And therfore adds another layer of protection to your already tried and tested procedures.

[1kyle]

This is definitely a device that's passed its time.

If you need to use MD as a data device then just plug your unit in --works fine in "Data Mode".

However there are many many better options for this now such as Card readers, Camera / solid state cards. A CF card can (currently) hold up to 8GB of data.

USB sticks etc are also pretty universal, small and cheap and more convenient especially for laptop users.

Newer computers also allow direct booting in any case from the USB, and some desktops are fitted with "Multi Format" card readers in place of the old floppy drive.

MD has a great deal of life left in it yet -- but computer data storage is not one of its potential applications.

(slightly OT but with regard to DVD-RAM -- you can get faster disks now (5X) and one of the great advantages of these in Video recording is you can actually play back the disk while recording on a different part of the disk AT THE SAME TIME. -- Great for watching a movie previously recorded while AT THE SAME TIME and on the same disk recording another one.

For archiving and long term storage DVD-RAM is still tops -- and you CAN format it in any way you want. Works with NERO, Linux EXT2/3/REISERFS/FAT32 etc etc.)

Cheers

-K

Edited July 16, 2006 by 1kyle

[tekdroid]

For archiving and long term storage DVD-RAM is still tops -- and you CAN format it in any way you want. Works with NERO, Linux EXT2/3/REISERFS/FAT32 etc etc.)

Cheers

-K

off-topic:

Ah, but is it possible to write to it natively in the OS with UDF without a separate app, unless you have Matsushita's driver? I don't think it is possible (but I haven't tried, since mine comes with it). So that's what I was referring to. DVD-RAM (in cartridges!) is a killer format, IMO.

[Andicillo]

Sony could push it as a cheap floppy replacemtif they made the drives cheap enough.

Well it is the cheapest/safest replacement for Cassettes, Cd's, Diskettes, DAT's, Zips, Jazz's, Pendrives, etc...

The problem is just bad management and envious people inside Sony Corp.

I doubt they will manufacture any more units.

[The Low Volta]

sorry, but no... as has been said often before, there are cheap replacements for all of these... they are either USB/flash sticks or CDr's depending on your personal taste. Both last long enough for standard use and for ppl needing longer lasting media, there are other (semi-pro or pro) options than a HiMD disc which work faster

hell, external drives are so cheap now that even your average joe has two of them to keep simultaneous backups and will never lose anything again

HiMD is good at what it does... it is a brilliant recording medium till someone has the brains to bring out a device with the same options and in the same price range, but with removable flash for storage

[garcou]

I use 1GB HiMD to store my photos and Xvid videos.

I feel fine to be able to identify one year with one disc, or one film with one disc.

I also store my work (.doc .pps files ) on md because I think it is the most secure media when you make a lot of rewritings.

I also keep another md copy of my work at my parent's house, cause there 's no assurance company that would compense it if my house burned!

Edited July 16, 2006 by garcou

[Sparky191]

I do the same except with 250GB HD's.

[The Low Volta]

I as well sparky and additionally I have the use of a couple of gb's on a secured server at work which serve as a backup fo the most important stuff

I couldn't imagine myself using HiMD disc for this...honestly

[1kyle]

If you are a Pro photographer -- say using a top of the range DSLR (Canon 5D/1DS2/1D2) your RAW pics will be around 10 - 16 MB per photo. Once you've "Photoshopped" these with some layering etc etc you are EASILY talking about 250 MB per pic here.

I don't think a 1GB MD (or any other 1GB device for that matter) will be sufficient for storing this type of data.

Cheers

-K

[garcou]

I'm not a pro photographer (250 MB/ pic??!!!) All my jpeg photos are less than 1MB (and I find them just fine), and my work needs only word or powerpoint files (I' m afraid about how long I'd have to work to fill up 250 GB!!!)

[Sparky191]

They should make a drive just for you so...

[garcou]

none of my friend or my family members have 250 MB picture too...

[heathenmagic]

This is an interesting topic. Still waiting for my RH1, my first Hi-Md machine. I envisage I'll be using this for storing data on the discs, as I am a partner in a business and need to transport pics, files, text e.t.c. Of course the main use will be for music. But I don't think I'll need a standalone drive, as I will have the comort of using the RH1 for such purposes. Would have been nice to have seen minidiscs used as a storage medium a few years ago instead of those 100mb zip discs. Silly Sony lol.

[Sparky191]

none of my friend or my family members have 250 MB picture too...

I've almost 8GB of family photos and video's. But thats just a fraction of the stuff I have. Work and Music is massive.

[BobS]

I have a DS-HMD1. I think a few things are being overlooked in the discussion.

1. I use my DS as an uploader most of the time. SonicStage sees it as any other HiMD. Saves wear and tear on my more expensive recorder.

2. A data drive should be able to be sold much cheaper that even a portable playback only unit, no display, no buttons, no provision for remote or headphones etc.

3. I regularly put data on my Audio discs. For instance, I have a disc with Handel's Messiah, I have PDF files with liner notes, biography, score etc. I sometimes put photos on the disc relating to the content. I find that very convenient. If my PC had a built in "data drive" using this info would be much more convenient.

You could just start SonicStage and be ready for uploading. Using it for data at that point would just be since it is there. If you have an audio disc that is not full and needed to carry a couple of files with you, copy them on. If you usually have your MD player with you, just hook it up and copy the files. Nothing extra to carry.

Different people just see things different. I use USB flash keys a lot. I also usually have my MD recorder and a few discs with me, sometimes I will have data on them.

[bland10000]

I use my hmd1 for transferring music to and from discs and for uploading the rare photo I take using the dh10p. It saves the wear-n-tear on more expensive recorders. I don't find it convenient for transporting files between locations as that requires a hi-md reader at both places or for me to bring the reader along; USB keys are much more convenient for that purpose.

No, I do not believe they will release another data drive.

[1kyle]

off-topic:

Ah, but is it possible to write to it natively in the OS with UDF without a separate app, unless you have Matsushita's driver? I don't think it is possible (but I haven't tried, since mine comes with it). So that's what I was referring to. DVD-RAM (in cartridges!) is a killer format, IMO.

Certainly in Linux -- you can create a file system on it with mke2fs or other formatting tools --no RAM driver needed.

In Windows FAT32 for DVD-RAM comes "Out of the Box". For UDF you probably need the panasonic RAM driver --but both INCD and NERO work fine. -- INCD creates a file system so you can use the device as a 4.7GB disk, and basic NERO means you can create a DVD-ROM disk on your DVD-RAM device.

Cheers

-K

none of my friend or my family members have 250 MB picture too...

It's not the picture per se -- once you've got it into .PSD format .ready for print with all the layers etc and a large print size then this is what takes the space.

A RAW image from the top of the range Canon 1Ds Mk 2 is around 16 MB but this will easily expand to 250 MB when it's ready for printing at 20 X 32 or larger.

One often stores the .PSD (Photoshop) file in case a client wants re-prints --it saves you re-processing a photo which in a commercial environment can take A LOT OF TIME.

Cheers

-K

[tekdroid]

Certainly in Linux -- you can create a file system on it with mke2fs or other formatting tools --no RAM driver needed.

In Windows FAT32 for DVD-RAM comes "Out of the Box". For UDF you probably need the panasonic RAM driver --but both INCD and NERO work fine.

yep, I know all this, but UDF is the only format I'd use for optical media (it's quite a bit faster to write to the disc with UDF and far more reliable than FAT32 or packet-writing software, such as InCD). Using third-party apps to write to the disc is against the ease-of-use and drag-n-drop philosophy of DVD-RAM, IMO.

I've read that FAT32 (and FAT) are actually far worse for the disc than UDF, being that they rewrite to the same parts of the disc constantly as files change (less of an issue with DVD-RAM since it has higher rewrites, but still can be an issue for daily-changed discs). Discs are also slower to write to with FAT32. Not too sure how the linux file systems compare, but Matsushita's UDF driver is essential to the way I use DVD-RAM. Every modern OS can read UDF of various flavours (and of course the reliability factor again), so it's important for me to format and write the discs with UDF.

I'm with you on big PSD files. Hah, would take forever to save on Hi-MD.

Would have been nice to have seen minidiscs used as a storage medium a few years ago instead of those 100mb zip discs. Silly Sony lol.

Zip discs (and drives) were quite cheap to make (sold for high enough price, of course) - and those 100MB versions were introduced many, many years ago now. Economics (and timing) played a big part. And they were still faster than Hi-MD! (external parallel port version was the slowest, though - thanks to the parallel port itself), and as anyone who has suffered from the Click Of Death knows (google it), they weren't the most reliable things in existence

Sony actually attempted to replace the floppy with HiFD (High Capacity Floppy Disc). Google it

[hobgoblin]

the one issue i have with flash devices is that they are not sold in multiple packs. say one could pick they up in 10-packs, maybe in that version thats no bigger then a flashcard with the basic usb connectors at one end (just fold some plastic bit away and stuff it into a port).

[pata2001]

the one issue i have with flash devices is that they are not sold in multiple packs. say one could pick they up in 10-packs, maybe in that version thats no bigger then a flashcard with the basic usb connectors at one end (just fold some plastic bit away and stuff it into a port).

I've seen a pack of 3 or 5 64MB USB flash drives. You can always buy them/anything in bulk from a distributor.

[bobt]

I've seen a pack of 3 or 5 64MB USB flash drives. You can always buy them/anything in bulk from a distributor.

But I'm sure they are way more expensive than a minidisc, and less capacity

Bob

[hobgoblin]

bingo, a 1GB flash card is about 30USD around here (1GB secure digital).

a usb flash storage device with the same capacity seems to be about the same.

hmm, a 1GB hi-md comes in at about 12USD...

a bit more expensive then i first tought (been a while since i checked).

still, they are about half to one third the cost of a usb device or flash card...

a 5-pack of minidiscs come in at about the same as the single hi-md. what was the storage capacity of a hi-md formated minidisc again? (i have a interest in the format, but getting hold of a player in this part of the world is anything but simple).

[Sparky191]

I think most people would pay the extra to get a decent speed. HiMD is too slow for regular data transfers.

[pata2001]

But I'm sure they are way more expensive than a minidisc, and less capacity

But they'll much smaller than a HiMD disc, and with much much faster data read/write speed, they are more useful for multimedia application like digital cameras and video recordings. Besides, prices continue to drop for flash memory, while I don't see any price drop for MD/HiMd unless it's a clearance.

[ZosoIV]

Flash cards also are subject to competitive pricing and rebates; Hi-MDs generally are not. If anything, discs seem to have gone up in the recent months - I haven't seen any 3.99 deals or anything like that for a while. I HAVE seen, however, 1GB SD cards for as little as $8 after rebate! Prices are falling every day for flash; even 4GB cards are under $80 now.