"IPod Police"

[sfbp]

Not sure if this the right place, and if our kindly moderators decide to move it.....

It suddenly occurred to me that we MD users have a huge advantage over the Ipod crowd if we are travelling. If someone wants to inspect our machine, all they can likely do is take away 1 minidisc. After all there is no way that they can determine what else is on some other disc we have in our bag.

I suppose it might take some convincing that "officer, this is not an ipod, there's no music on it". But assuming the said forces of copyright law and order are intelligent enough to look at what is being listened to, they probably are intelligent enough to understand that when the disc is removed, there is no infringing material in the machine.

Could this even be enough to spark a flight back to MD? I doubt it. I always knew MD was superior because you can hold it in your hand (unlike a hard disk which will eventually die) and know what's on it.

Stephen

[BIGHMW]

Although I now use an NW-HD5 HDD Walkman for my personal music purposes, I thank God (and all of the members of the MDCF and A-T-B over the two years I have been on it) that I still have all of both my legacy and Hi-MD units, just in case.

I am sure that this "iPod police" will eventually go away as they wil soon realize that there are just too many of them (iPods and other MP3 players and their owners) to check each and every song and/or program that is on it, besides, All I ever put on my HD5 (and also on Hi-MD) are MD compilations (recorded in legacy stereo SP on my decks and then uploaded to PC through my RH1) I made from CDs that I bought legally on either eBay. Tower Records, or Amazon or here in Port Townsend at Quimper Sound Music & Media over the years, so they aint got crap on me, at least here in the U.S.

Edited June 20, 2008 by BIGHMW

[pata2001]

I suppose it might take some convincing that "officer, this is not an ipod, there's no music on it". But assuming the said forces of copyright law and order are intelligent enough to look at what is being listened to, they probably are intelligent enough to understand that when the disc is removed, there is no infringing material in the machine.

Then they'll ask for the disc. Apart from iPods, you don't seem to understand the problem with the proposed legislation.

[sfbp]

Then they'll ask for the disc. Apart from iPods, you don't seem to understand the problem with the proposed legislation.

I'm not speaking to that problem (whatever single "problem" you think it is). I am curious why you think (assuming you are not Canadian yourself) you are qualified to comment on what I understand on a subject that is outside your domain of interest or competence.

I don't have an iPod. You're not Canadian (correct me, please). So maybe that makes us even?!?!?

[Syrius]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterf...Trade_Agreement

Yeop. I just wonder who'll be the brave agent who'll go over EVERY SINGLE LITTLE F-ING FILE ON A PERSON'S COMPUTER TO MAKE SURE IT'S LEGIT.

Tell me something. What is going to keep me from putting all my potentially infringing music or movies inside of a compressed RAR folder, that has been password protected and its extension changed to something else, and buried deep within the bowels of windows (or even better, Linux), to make it look like an install folder?

Seriously. Who'll be dumb enough to walk around an airport with a computer loaded with "Kung-Fu Panda 1080P reencode DIVX UltraWAREZ ~CRACKED~.torrent" right on their desktop?

Bwa ha ha ha. I thumbeth my nose at thee, G8.

[sfbp]

Sure.

But if you've ever tangled with some of the numnuts who police the various borders, you wouldn't want to experiment. My only point is, wouldn't it be nice to say "here's a disc, you can have it if you insist, there's no music on the device"?

[Strungup]

Sure.

But if you've ever tangled with some of the numnuts who police the various borders, you wouldn't want to experiment. My only point is, wouldn't it be nice to say "here's a disc, you can have it if you insist, there's no music on the device"?

I like that one ......still have the CD at Home !

[netmduser]

Isn't a levy paid in Canada for blanks including minidiscs...so you can copy any music you like to minidiscs in Canada?

[sfbp]

Isn't a levy paid in Canada for blanks including minidiscs...so you can copy any music you like to minidiscs in Canada?

Weird, I found so many different accounts of what the levy is that I don't believe any of them. I know it *used* to be 21c per cd. I'm pretty sure it has been adjusted, probably to tax CD's and cassettes less, and DVD's more. But no luck digging this up (yet).

I found references to .25c, 21c, 67c, who knows??? What I do know that currently any of these except the first would exceed the cost of CDRs that I can buy in the supermarket.

Edit: looks like 21c but no reference to the other media (DVD, MD).

So at least here it doesn't seem that onerous. One time I went down and bought some in the USA but the real price included a refund from the "fulfilment house" (a euphemism, as their job is to get out of paying up on any grounds whatever), and they simply didn't even respond telling me I wasn't eligible. So in the end more expensive than here. I'll check the next time we go grocery shopping and post the result.

[netmduser]

- Audio cassettes (of 40 minutes or more in length): 29¢ each

- CD-R and CD-RW: 21¢ each

- CD-R Audio, CD-RW Audio and MiniDisc: 77¢ each

- For non-removable memory permanently embedded in a digital audio recorder: $2 for each recorder that can record no more than 1 Gb of data, $15 for each recorder that can record more than 1 Gb and no more than 10 Gbs of data, and $25 for each recorder that can record more than 10 Gbs of data.

http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/news/c20032004fs-e.html

[pata2001]

But if you've ever tangled with some of the numnuts who police the various borders, you wouldn't want to experiment. My only point is, wouldn't it be nice to say "here's a disc, you can have it if you insist, there's no music on the device"?

To me, it seems you just don't understand the frightening issue of the proposed legislation, from the way you're taking it lightly like that. Well, with that kind of attitude, more and more draconian laws and trade agreements will pass.

[sfbp]

To me, it seems you just don't understand the frightening issue of the proposed legislation, from the way you're taking it lightly like that. Well, with that kind of attitude, more and more draconian laws and trade agreements will pass.

I wasn't discussing the legislation. You were.

[pata2001]

I wasn't discussing the legislation. You were.

Huh? If that is not what we're discussing, then where the "iPod Police" comes from? You're talking on how "easy" to get by the proposed trade agreement if you have MD. I merely stated that it's not that simple, and don't take it lightly just because you feel proud that you can fool airport security with your MD. Don't assume that it is only for iPods.

[sfbp]

Huh? If that is not what we're discussing, then where the "iPod Police" comes from? You're talking on how "easy" to get by the proposed trade agreement if you have MD. I merely stated that it's not that simple, and don't take it lightly just because you feel proud that you can fool airport security with your MD. Don't assume that it is only for iPods.

I said nothing about "getting by" the trade agreement. I was assuming that some jerk who didn't know what he was doing might start inspecting every piece of electronics (much like they make us take our shoes off in US airports). I was further suggesting there was nothing that I might have that could be confiscated except the media, provided I stick to MD.

I am not proud. Nothing to be proud of. Or ashamed of.

I have no idea what you're talking about "fooling airport security". This is a matter of international borders and contraband. Perhaps you have never crossed into another country by presenting your passport? It has nothing whatsoever to do with "airport security".

[sfbp]

- Audio cassettes (of 40 minutes or more in length): 29¢ each

- CD-R and CD-RW: 21¢ each

- CD-R Audio, CD-RW Audio and MiniDisc: 77¢ each

- For non-removable memory permanently embedded in a digital audio recorder: $2 for each recorder that can record no more than 1 Gb of data, $15 for each recorder that can record more than 1 Gb and no more than 10 Gbs of data, and $25 for each recorder that can record more than 10 Gbs of data.

http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/news/c20032004fs-e.html

The one which amazes me is CD-R Audio. I first encountered this concept about a month ago where a very serious gentleman of my acquaintance insisted that they are necessary (at least in his CD-recorder that's not part of a computer).

So they tax these disks after deliberately making them different. This is sorta like the Italian government (and I dare say others since) putting a dye in fuel obtained using petrol coupons so that it would be illegal for non-tourists to have dyed fuel (much cheaper) in their cars. Shocking. Unless there really is some technical merit, all they would seem to have achieved is to ensure CD (music) recorders don't sell.

I just got back from the grocery store. $19.99 (+ 12% tax) for a spindle of 50. So the levy (21c) is a little bit over half. Certainly not expensive enough for me to complain.

[alexis]

Looks like it is time to extend usage of steganographic file systems, or use steganography instead of cryptography.

see: what is steganography

[sfbp]

Looks like it is time to extend usage of steganographic file systems, or use steganography instead of cryptography.

see: what is steganography

One of the things that does upset me about much of the legislation being enacted around the world (I understand it is already in force in Britain, and for sure in the USA) is that it will be illegal to encrypt anything without giving the Government access to it. I realise that there are reasons to prevent the "bad guys" from being able to commit treason in secret, but gun controls never stopped felons from acquiring guns.

Suggestions have been made that DES encryption is steganographic (ie the US Govt could always decode it, though noone is quite sure how), which is why AES was supposed to replace it. Security by keeping the algorithm secret is generally frowned upon in computer circles because sooner or later the secret gets out. This was the basis of the design and selection of AES as the new standard for encryption.

Mind you, if it ever gets to the point that they confiscate a MD because they cannot determine what's on it, that would be the time to stop travelling.

[Strungup]

The one which amazes me is CD-R Audio. I first encountered this concept about a month ago where a very serious gentleman of my acquaintance insisted that they are necessary (at least in his CD-recorder that's not part of a computer).

So they tax these disks after deliberately making them different. This is sorta like the Italian government (and I dare say others since) putting a dye in fuel obtained using petrol coupons so that it would be illegal for non-tourists to have dyed fuel (much cheaper) in their cars. Shocking. Unless there really is some technical merit, all they would seem to have achieved is to ensure CD (music) recorders don't sell.

I just got back from the grocery store. $19.99 (+ 12% tax) for a spindle of 50. So the levy (21c) is a little bit over half. Certainly not expensive enough for me to complain.

???? not enough to complain ???? 50 blank CD's here are about 798 yen on sale for the bulk packs , Nicer quality will of course cost more , but the issue of a Tax on a media of which they have no idea WHAT your going to put on it .

So if the discs say DATA instead of blank Audio cd's do they have the same tax ? They are almost the same thing and DATA CD's work just fine for Audio ( Better in a lot of cases )

they plain fact of having that kind of tax on a blank media , which NOTHING is on , to charge for PRESUMED usage or Material , because it is ASSUMED that your going to put copyrighted stuff on it , is illegal . It is basically the same as saying that I would have to pay the RIAA , TO RECORD MY OWN MUSIC ..................!!!!

My Stuff , not someone elses ......... and I would still have to pay a MUSIC Tax

DATA ( Pictures , files , ebooks , whatever ) ..........and I still have to pay a MUSIC /Movie ( ie. ENTERTAINMENT )tax

next thing is , I am sitting out in the park , playing my guitar for my OWN personal enjoyment , and some dude in a suit comes up to me and says that I have to Pay an entertainment fee just for exposing someone to music , also a Performance fee , because I am playing outside , then the cops show up and bust me for PERFOrMING without a License and take me to Jail . ...................

( the buskers here in Japan are already working on a License system , ............ they get permits to play at the train stations , I have watched the station managers come out if someone elses sits down WITH the person who is playing ( ie. Jam session)

nearly half the world is already living under a form of Martial Law , and in every other country the personal freedoms are slow and meticulusly being eroded away without anyone really noticing .

not enough to complain ............................ when will it be?

Edited June 24, 2008 by Guitarfxr

[netmduser]

not enough to complain ............................ when will it be?

What about crossing the CAN - US border with burned CDs in your CD player (ie. car)? This is equivalent to crossing with minidisc...Would they just take a look at the CD and say, hey it's not a purchased CD? With minidisc, there is not as much commercial minidiscs...i am not sure minidisc has an advantage here.

Edited June 23, 2008 by netmduser

[sfbp]

The border guards might think you are from Mission Impossible, but apart from that, what can they do except confiscate the disk?

I agree that CD's in one's car might well be subject to scrutiny.

Now books, there's an interesting topic. Did you know that the big textbook publishers have special editions that they publish only in poor countries? (you can buy one online and get it by mail for 1/10 the price here). I'm sure that the said publishers would love the border guards to confiscate them. But would they? Any more than they would confiscate music????

Yes, I think 40c is cheap for a recordable CD.

[BIGHMW]

Do you mean to tell me that they can seize my CD's/MD's/MP3 player although it contains compilations (recorded on MD and then uploaded to my PC and then to my NW-HD5 through my MZ-RH1) that consist of music I bought LEGALLY in a record store and then ripped to MD in order to make my custom compilations???

That sounds like the RIAA/MPAA crap that I keep hearing about, I can understand if you download it off of the internet, but custom MD mixes??? That is total bull-loney.

Time for anarchy if you ask me.

Edited June 24, 2008 by BIGHMW

[sfbp]

I'm actually of the opinion that any such law is simply un-implementable. But border guards (you would know this if you were a Canadian who had visited the USA) have unlimited power. All it takes is some directive from Washington (or Ottawa) and you're screwed.

Try taking fruit back from Canada in the summer. I almost didn't make it to Disneyland with my kids.

[Strungup]

Power Corrupts , Absolute Power , ........ Corrupts ,..... Absolutely

[bobt]

I'll probably be in Canada soon, will be interesting, will be bringing the MD for sure, IPOD maybe. Where I'm from there is no media copyright legislation, so I wonder how thet would be addressed. As well, the IPOD was given to me, they could conceivably have a problem with that. As far as I know that particular piece of legislation hasn't officially been ratified yet, there is a lot of backlash in Canada from several artist groups as well as a lot of legal opinion that it cannot be enforcible.

Hopefully level head prevail. and they thell the amerikans to back off on this one,

Bob

[BIGHMW]

As an American, I am shocked and appalled by this pending legislation, it's against everything this country )used to) stands for. It is also unenforceable and unconstitutional, and what if you self-produce your own music (I am a musician, see my MySpace Music site for details) on CD-R and DVD-R for the fans to purchase as opposed to having them manufactured (impossible for most small-time musicians like me, and against everything the underground music scene stands for)? Are they going to seize my own self-produced material that I wrote and produced myself???

It proves that the mainstream entertainment industry is trying everything they can to shut down the underground music and film industries and trying to homogenize us into selling out to Clear Channel and the MPAA/RIAA and their tyrant-like ways.

If they (the RIAA/MPAA) have their ways, there wil no longer be any underground clubs or music scene as we will all be forced-fed all of this JACK-FM crap where they "play what they want".

Edited June 24, 2008 by BIGHMW

[sfbp]

As an American, I am shocked and appalled by this pending legislation, it's against everything this country )used to) stands for. It is also unenforceable and unconstitutional, and what if you self-produce your own music (I am a musician, see my MySpace Music site for details) on CD-R and DVD-R for the fans to purchase as opposed to having them manufactured (impossible for most small-time musicians like me, and against everything the underground music scene stands for)? Are they going to seize my own self-produced material that I wrote and produced myself???

It proves that the mainstream entertainment industry is trying everything they can to shut down the underground music and film industries and trying to homogenize us into selling out to Clear Channel and the MPAA/RIAA and their tyrant-like ways.

If they (the RIAA/MPAA) have their ways, there wil no longer be any underground clubs or music scene as we will all be forced-fed all of this JACK-FM crap where they "play what they want".

First off, I'm not sure which legislation you are referring to. As an American, the Canadian legislation doesn't affect you unless you cross our borders.

Assuming you mean the Canadian Bill C-61 (replacing the in-force C-60 which has the levy provision as a way of distributing some money to struggling Canadian artists), it's far from passed. There has been uproar here. I personally think that we should be getting excited about what's going on in Zimbabwe, or in pre-Olympic China, or Darfur, Afghanistan or any number of places, but that's my personal position.

Second off, I think the legislation here has been introduced under incredible pressure from the US music and movie lobby amid all sorts of veiled government threats about losing NAFTA, and making it more difficult for traffic (tourists, truckers and all) to flow in either direction. After all, we are the USA's #1 business partner, and vice-versa. I think (personal unsubstantiated opinion follows) the drafters of the legislation knew the public (and the parliamentarians who represent it) wouldn't stand for it, and largely followed the US model knowing said legislation will fail, so that they can say "we tried". Informed academic opinion (law professors etc) is firmly against the bill and firmly in favour of the status quo, or perhaps other measures.

Third off (and this is where the lobbying efforts sometimes bear fruit) there have been all sorts of trumpetings about Canada being the source of all piracy owing to some petty crooks stealing bad copies of movies with a camcorder, whereas in reality, the numbers are but a drop in the bucket, and may even serve to popularize the pirated movie(s). I don't have the reference to hand.

So all in all, yes it's absurd to make it illegal to:

a. own and operate a "foreign" DVD player

b. rip tracks onto CD (but not sell them, that part is "not cricket" as far as I am concerned and the law agrees)

c. time-shift/archive/mediaconvert material that you own or (under the current laws) have the right to access.

Finally the (Canadian) Government has assured us that it will not itself get involved in prosecution of malefactors under the new highly restrictive provisions. Since the Govt operates our borders, I see no way that anything like the "IPod Police" could get to be. However I can easily see it at airports going into US customs - the INS/DHS guys enforce far more laws on those rash enough to want to enter the USA than they ever enforce on their own citizens. And in the US there is a much closer link between big corporations and Government.

All in all I agree with everything you say about the RIAA/MPAA and their efforts to force this kind of corporate silliness down the throats of Canadian consumers.

Bobt, don't worry. The earliest any of this might happen in Canada is November, I think.

Meantime I plan to spend some effort opposing the internet throttling that's happening in Ontario. As a software author, I am not in favour of (99% illegal) peer to peer sharing of unlimited content (software, music, video) that triggered this brownout. But dragging the whole internet down and checking every packet to try and shut down specific illegal applications will probably never work.

And I applaud the decision to attempt to place curbs on oil speculation, which some folks have now admitted what I guessed a month ago, is mainly responsible for the cries of "Peak Oil".

Wow, we are getting a long way from MD. Time to pull back....

Stephen

[undesign]

You guys arent serious about this being a reason not to buy an ipod?

[sfbp]

You guys arent serious about this being a reason not to buy an ipod?

I don't need one. In fact I have 6 sitting on the desk in front of me (give you a clue - they all start with the letters MZ).

[kino170878]

Maybe it's time we all go back to cassettes. Nobody is going to waste time going through a tape that has no instant access to tracks. I still have a separates tape deck lying unused in the garage, and hi-fi systems are still being made with tape decks built in.

[pata2001]

I said nothing about "getting by" the trade agreement. I was assuming that some jerk who didn't know what he was doing might start inspecting every piece of electronics (much like they make us take our shoes off in US airports). I was further suggesting there was nothing that I might have that could be confiscated except the media, provided I stick to MD.

I am not proud. Nothing to be proud of. Or ashamed of.

I have no idea what you're talking about "fooling airport security". This is a matter of international borders and contraband. Perhaps you have never crossed into another country by presenting your passport? It has nothing whatsoever to do with "airport security".

Whooosh, Yeah, I didn't know why I used "Airport security" as an example. What I meant was "border security."

Perhaps you have never crossed into another country by presenting your passport?

I have traveled to most SE Asia countries, and Australia. Pardon my misuse of words.

In the end, this is only the tip of the iceberg. Copyright laws are only going to get worse because people are taking things lightly every time (as shown in this thread) by assuming that the law is unenforceable, or that they won't be caught/affected/can get around it. iPod or not iPod doesn't matter.

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[sfbp]

oh my, could the moderators delete this and zap this guy?

[BIGHMW]

Good call dude. BAN SPAMMERS!!!

[sfbp]

Well, the DHS really scored a home run, look at this guys:

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/08/01/0958242

Unbelievable!

[Strungup]

My kid ,.......ok a 13 year old , took 1.3 seconds to figure this out , held up his laptop , and said" You mean this would go , for no reason at all ??? "

This is totally illegal , or at least it was ,........ But remember ,...... They want a "New World Order " and you dont have a choice .

iBook g4 , his treasure .......... great outlook on the world scene eh?

[Syrius]

This is basically empowering agents to act as thieves. They like your computer? Fine. They can always confiscate it. (And don't be surprised if it ends "lost" and they keep it. Refuse? Guantanamo Bay. This is just plain bogus.

Congratulations, president Bush. You have turned the USA exactly into what we hated the most: The Old, Corrupt Soviet Union.

[Artstar]

Kinda makes me think about keeping my Macbook Pro and PCM-D50 back home in Sydney when it's time for me to work in Vancouver in a year or so. I'll just keep my old broken Toshiba laptop as a sacrificial unit if they get too excited with me.

[sfbp]

Somehow I don't foresee the Canadian Border Service doing anything like that. We are now set for an election, and nothing that is politically unpopular will get acted on by the current government. It's quite clear that the majority of Canadians want nothing to do with Bill C-61. Scan some of the earlier messages for some background. Google "C-61" in News and you will see what I mean.

No worries mate.

[Sparky191]

I doubt this will ever happen. If it did I don't think its beyond anyone to find music on someone else gear. Its not exactly a hard task.

Incidentally, some mobile phones can encrypt their own memory and the memory card in them. So thats already here.