Boredom is a dangerous thing

[Xeys_00]

Well, I'm trying minidisc for the year of 2009. I have had all sorts of mp3 players, from the original 32 mb diamond rio to the ipod touch, and I have decided to try out minidisc, as I have kind of gotten bored with the "standard" mp3 player. My fiance now has my ipod nano(great thing about that is it's still ours, lol), and I ordered a new Sony MZ-DN430PSWHI Psyc MiniDisc Network Walkman (White) off one of the little stores affiliated with amazon. I am doing this as a 1 year experiment. I ordered 20 discs, so I should have plenty of test material to work with. At least I won't be worried about getting mugged on the bus, as no one will know what this is anyways. I will probably make youtube recordings of my experiment through the year. From what my research tells me, I will be able to put music on this device in one of 2 atrac formats: atrac and atrac3. I will be putting cds on here through sonicstage 4.3, when I find it. I will be making a deliberate effort not to transcode other formats; cd to atrac only. I will probably be using my flip mino hd to record my classes, and then clean it up in editing and send it to atrac for listening on a special "lecture" disc. I figured this would be a logical place to get help and advice for this project. I look forward to all comments and advice.

[sfbp]

Yes, you're mad. Everyone here is mad, have to be. Having said that you should get lots of support from us crazies.

No, you're not mad. MD still beats the rest by a Scottish mile (whatever that is) and most people here have bought multiple units because they cannot bear the thought that their beloved MD might break down.

Having said that: trust only one format - WAV - for keeping. For playback, you will have to come to your own conclusions, but the Atrac formats (at least anything less than 256KAtrac3+) are not for keeping, with the sole exception of the original SP (292kbps). This produces digital sound that is (to the ears) as good as CD, though I am sure we could have an endless debate about other people's ears. But you cannot transfer SP to a computer, save it as SP, and transfer it again to MD as SP, except via extremely circuitous routes - Sony didn't want us to do that.

I predict that by the end of the year you will have gone out and got at least one HiMD unit, and that you will have experimented with taking all sorts of sounds off the web, the air, and maybe by microphone.

Very good luck to you, and Merry Christmas

[kino170878]

I have to go against the consensus here and suggest that you take the gamble and invest heavily in the MD format. You can now buy portables, decks, and discs at a huge discount to their original prices. The format is for all intents and purposes obsolete and that's good for you. It is for this reason in fact that I decided to seriously stockpile on equipment. There are bargains to be had especially at christmas when everyone is cash constrained and selling their gear like crazy.

[tekdroid]

Well, I'm trying minidisc for the year of 2009. I have had all sorts of mp3 players, from the original 32 mb diamond rio to the ipod touch, and I have decided to try out minidisc, as I have kind of gotten bored with the "standard" mp3 player.

Congrats, but consider Hi-MD too, I would. Regardless, I hope you encounter some classic hardware you can keep (and pass down) through the ages. A lot of the older NetMD and pre-NetMD have particularly fine build quality and the format is still unique and good at doing what it does, despite notable trade-offs. Still I'm convinced that you will find something here you won't find elsewhere that will keep you hooked.

Besides, everyone knows crazy is non-replaceable batteries and storage

[brian10161]

Bah, not crazy mate. Minidisc is still as young as the day it was first available. Much better quality than standard MP3 players and the iPods. The only downside to having a minidisc player vs an ipod, is having numerous discs. Unless you go HiMD of course. But seriously, thats the only downside, and it's not even that bad.

I got my first player on 2004, then I used a lot until around 2006 when I got my iPod nano. I really didn't use my MD that much afterward. Now, 2008 and I'm picking up where I left off. I have ordered many blanks, and 3 other players.

Lots of help and support to be found here!

-Brian

[Strungup]

And having a collection of numerous discs ,........is a BAD thing ????? I kinda like my collection thank you !

tooooo many to count , but that s the fun of it .

[brian10161]

ahah thats not what I meant mate, just when on the go, gotta care em. But now that I have my HiMD, I don't need to do that.

I love my Minidisc collection

[Xeys_00]

Well, a bit of an update. I met with someone today who had 2 md units and 20 discs for 50 bucks. They sounded good. I left empty handed. Why? Well, first let me tell you the units. First it was some sort of a sport netmd unit that had seals all over it, and it was built like a brick. Had a line in, no mic in, and no remote. The second was a unit that has a remote and same specs as above, but it was a plastic gray unit. I don't have access to the unit designations right now. The sports walkman looked like it had had a hard life. The internal battery door barely closed, although the outer door sealed good on top of it. The guy claimed it was hardly used, but it had a noticeable scratch on the front, and it didn't close all the way. I was suspicious. the other unit didn't have the remote, and the guy claimed it never had one. I told him of my research, and he claimed it was an early unit that only had the remote as a separate option. The remote/headphone jack was a loose fit for my headphones, as I'm sure it was not designed to fit in the first place. The no remote kind of killed my interest in that one unit, and the fact that the other one looked like it had had a hard life already made me less interested. I did ask if he'd sell everything but the remoteless unit and he told me no. So I walked. I may get back on ebay, although I hate paypal.

[brian10161]

@Xeys_00

Check out Amazon.com, they have a lot of MD units to choose from. Even the older units you can still buy brand new in package. I got an MZ-NE410 for 35 bucks shipped brand new in the package. My N510 was 50 bucks Shipped, and the NH600D was 85, both these were used however. The 510 looks like it was well taken care of, and the 600D is basically brand new. Purchased as a gift, but the person didn't want it.

If you stalk items on Amazon, I think you can find a good deal hehe

Good luck mate.

Edited December 17, 2008 by brian10161

[Xeys_00]

@Xeys_00

Check out Amazon.com, they have a lot of MD units to choose from. Even the older units you can still buy brand new in package. I got an MZ-NE410 for 35 bucks shipped brand new in the package. My N510 was 50 bucks Shipped, and the NH600D was 85, both these were used however. The 510 looks like it was well taken care of, and the 600D is basically brand new. Purchased as a gift, but the person didn't want it.

If you stalk items on Amazon, I think you can find a good deal hehe

Good luck mate.

Amazon is a ripoff. I'm looking for a new unit, one with a mic in, line in, and usb, and Amazon and it's little marketplace stores are asking ripoff prices. The prices are so far out of line with reality that I'm considering returning the 50 dollar simple playback only unit and discs I've ordered that haven't even arrived yet. Someone has told these online retailers that they can scalp people looking to get into this hobby. It's almost like they don't care if they sell them or not. I'd like to try this hobby out, but it's looking ridiculously expensive on it's face. It doesn't make sense, I know, but I'm getting mad about this idea to price obsolete old tech like it's brand new stuff. I'm realistic, and know not to throw money away, especially these days. I get upset because the thought of still useful technology rotting away in some warehouse till they are so out of date they will be landfill material is ridiculous. Sorry for being upset, but there is no reason to be pricing these units this way. And don't even get me started on the HI-MD units.

[sfbp]

Amazon is a ripoff. I'm looking for a new unit, one with a mic in, line in, and usb, and Amazon and it's little marketplace stores are asking ripoff prices. The prices are so far out of line with reality that I'm considering returning the 50 dollar simple playback only unit and discs I've ordered that haven't even arrived yet. Someone has told these online retailers that they can scalp people looking to get into this hobby. It's almost like they don't care if they sell them or not. I'd like to try this hobby out, but it's looking ridiculously expensive on it's face. It doesn't make sense, I know, but I'm getting mad about this idea to price obsolete old tech like it's brand new stuff. I'm realistic, and know not to throw money away, especially these days. I get upset because the thought of still useful technology rotting away in some warehouse till they are so out of date they will be landfill material is ridiculous. Sorry for being upset, but there is no reason to be pricing these units this way. And don't even get me started on the HI-MD units.

You may have paid too much for your DN430, I agree (I looked on Amazon and I saw one for $150). These were numerous on ebay as recently as September changing hands for $20. Having said that, there are lots of bargains, and most of the equipment I bought was 20% of the original price or less. The exception was my MZ-RH1. GuitarFxr here has made a kind of hobby of rescuing abandoned second hand units from stores in Tokyo, and checking them out and selling them on. He may well be able to help you. However depending on where you are located, there are all sorts of options as to the best deals, I'll try to help.

There are almost no units "for sale by the retail distribution chain" - but you will often find a unit that's been hardly used for deep discounts. $50 is reasonable for a starter unit, many of the units you can get now for this price were $200 or more when sold originally.

[Xeys_00]

You may have paid too much for your DN430, I agree (I looked on Amazon and I saw one for $150). These were numerous on ebay as recently as September changing hands for $20. Having said that, there are lots of bargains, and most of the equipment I bought was 20% of the original price or less. The exception was my MZ-RH1. GuitarFxr here has made a kind of hobby of rescuing abandoned second hand units from stores in Tokyo, and checking them out and selling them on. He may well be able to help you. However depending on where you are located, there are all sorts of options as to the best deals, I'll try to help.

There are almost no units "for sale by the retail distribution chain" - but you will often find a unit that's been hardly used for deep discounts. $50 is reasonable for a starter unit, many of the units you can get now for this price were $200 or more when sold originally.

I did buy it new for 50. I guess I'm a bit sore that these places have no decent pricing for a new unit with full features thats not a hi-md unit. I thought by settling for a non hi-md with all the inputs, I still could get away with 100 or so, new.

[brian10161]

Yah I know what ya mean, the new still tends to be quite high. I stuck with the used/low end models.

They probably don't care if the stuff gets sold or not because they may have just attained it for little to nothing.

My next MD play will be a new MZ-RH1. If they're still available in the new year.

[Xeys_00]

Yah I know what ya mean, the new still tends to be quite high. I stuck with the used/low end models.

They probably don't care if the stuff gets sold or not because they may have just attained it for little to nothing.

My next MD play will be a new MZ-RH1. If they're still available in the new year.

It looks like this little experiment may end as soon as I get these items that I've ordered. There is no clear and easy way to upgrade to new equipment, as it seems to be horded by those who don't care if it sells or not, and will only part with it at inflated prices. I'm questioning my reasoning at this time for thinking about this format.

[Strungup]

It looks like this little experiment may end as soon as I get these items that I've ordered. There is no clear and easy way to upgrade to new equipment, as it seems to be horded by those who don't care if it sells or not, and will only part with it at inflated prices. I'm questioning my reasoning at this time for thinking about this format.

Shame , MD is cool .... if you ever change your mind though , there is my Sanctuary for Md stuff

[BIGHMW]

I too have a huge arsenal of MD, Hi-MD (including three MZ-RH1 units), and NW-HD5 HDD Walkmen, and while I (now) use the HD5 for my listening enjoyment, if anything happens to it or if my stock of rechargeable batteries dies beyond maintaining a full charge, I always have my MD and Hi-MD Walkmen to fall back on, what an advantage I have, because I stocked up on what everyone out there in clueless, naive iSheepland says is "dead, obsolete technology".

At least we here on the MDCF will be the ones standing tall when there will eventually be no more blanks let alone units, and after everyone else's MP3 DAP's finally bite the dust!!!

...and even when our rechargeable batteries in out ever-so-huge backstock die out on us, at least many of us who have AA battery-operated players and recorders (both MD/MDLP/NetMD and Hi-MD) will still be going strong, long after the last of the iSheep beg us for forgiveness like those who got busted by The Commish with the proverbial non-sanctioned light beer in those Miller Lite "More Taste League" commercials do.

You are indeed not nuts for going with MD and Hi-MD, it is still, even 17 years after its first introduction, the most versatile portable player/recorder on the planet, obsolete or not. Period.

[ShriDurga]

I get upset because the thought of still useful technology rotting away in some warehouse till they are so out of date they will be landfill material is ridiculous. Sorry for being upset, but there is no reason to be pricing these units this way. And don't even get me started on the HI-MD units.

Anyone hoarding MD tech for speculative pruposes is likely to end up with an attic full of scrap metal and plastic. The potential market is minuscule. Be patient, keep looking, and something will turn up.

[Xeys_00]

I too have a huge arsenal of MD, Hi-MD (including three MZ-RH1 units), and NW-HD5 HDD Walkmen, and while I (now) use the HD5 for my listening enjoyment, if anything happens to it or if my stock of rechargeable batteries dies beyond maintaining a full charge, I always have my MD and Hi-MD Walkmen to fall back on, what an advantage I have, because I stocked up on what everyone out there in clueless, naive iSheepland says is "dead, obsolete technology".

At least we here on the MDCF will be the ones standing tall when there will eventually be no more blanks let alone units, and after everyone else's MP3 DAP's finally bite the dust!!!

...and even when our rechargeable batteries in out ever-so-huge backstock die out on us, at least many of us who have AA battery-operated players and recorders (both MD/MDLP/NetMD and Hi-MD) will still be going strong, long after the last of the iSheep beg us for forgiveness like those who got busted by The Commish with the proverbial non-sanctioned light beer in those Miller Lite "More Taste League" commercials do.

You are indeed not nuts for going with MD and Hi-MD, it is still, even 17 years after its first introduction, the most versatile portable player/recorder on the planet, obsolete or not. Period.

Well, after sleeping on it, I will go ahead with the experiment. What would be a good model of MD player/recorder that has all the inputs on it(mic, line in digital and analog) that uses only a standard AA battery? Also, just to clarify about what I saw yesterday, the 2 models were Sony MZ-S1 and Sony MZ-N510. The s1 looked real tough... Like you could drop it off a building and it would be ok. The other, not so much.

[sfbp]

Depending on where you are, Ebay is almost certainly the best solution. Most of the time there are 300+ items listed under minidisc, and more if you go to other ebay sites, or widen your search (Ebay themselves have done some of this recently) to include more than your home country.

Another possibility is craigslist, I have obtained two wonderful pieces for next to nothing - but maybe that's for when you know better what you're getting into. Amazon is certainly weird - I had all my CDs stolen from my car (ended up getting an MD changer as a result) and one of them was listed at $175 on Amazon ($20 new but not available). Go figure - maybe they figure insurance companies will pay or something.

Using paypal these days is a lot safer than credit cards.

(added) was just answering last night's post(s). I would try to get an NH700 which does everything. But at the moment there's only one in the UK. The N707 might be a good choice as it does have a microphone input. But only the HiMD units will do upload via USB. This includes the NH600 (no mic) NH700/NHF800, NH900 and the marvellous RH1 (the last unit available for retail purchase - you can get one for under $300). However if you don't need upload then almost anything will do, and will sound good. Start with the equipment browser

http://minidisc.org/equipment_browser.html

Good luck!

[culp4684]

Using paypal these days is a lot safer than credit cards.

How do you figure that? In truth, it's the exact opposite. If you can find a seller that actually accepts payment directly by credit card, you're protected if you don't receive the merchandise. If you use Paypal, all they are is a money transfer service. Even if you use a credit card to send the funds to Paypal, once the funds are sent to the buyer Paypal has fulfilled their obligation and you have no chargeback rights.

I realize eBay has some measure of protection now for the buyer in certain instances. But that's not always the case in every transaction and certainly not if you use Paypal outside of eBay.

[Strungup]

Actually Paypal has Buyer protection services , do some research , I just used it , for a peice of software that didnt work , Complained to the vender , no response , emailed Paypal , and demanded a retraction , in less than 24 hours , I got a response and verification , and my money back from the vendor after a short period , all of which was taken care of by PaYPAL

[sfbp]

How do you figure that? In truth, it's the exact opposite. If you can find a seller that actually accepts payment directly by credit card, you're protected if you don't receive the merchandise. If you use Paypal, all they are is a money transfer service. Even if you use a credit card to send the funds to Paypal, once the funds are sent to the buyer Paypal has fulfilled their obligation and you have no chargeback rights.

I realize eBay has some measure of protection now for the buyer in certain instances. But that's not always the case in every transaction and certainly not if you use Paypal outside of eBay.

I wasn't talking about buyer protection.

The credit card number is far more use to crooks than the paypal address, I recently found my credit card number being used for transactions in Walmart in a US state that I have never ever set foot in. Of course it was cancelled (the card) etc etc etc, but increasingly paypal is a good thing because they don't get your identity, and you don't have to enter a bunch of details into all those different websites.

[Strungup]

Identity theft involving C.Cards , and Bank accounts is over 70 billion dollars a year in business

Edited December 18, 2008 by Guitarfxr

[Xeys_00]

Well, I found sonic stage 4.3, and after a good nights sleep, am about to start ripping my cd's into the atrac 3 format. I took a listen to some samples of 64k and 132k atrac vs the original wave file, and I'm impressed as to the sound quality. How come this format was never released by sony freely, and handed out to people? They could have been the itunes/ipod killer; they sell the devices or get profits from licensing the tech, and everyone else has mp3 type tech years earlier. I'm assuming my george carlin stuff can be encoded at 64k. Is there some sort of limit to how high encoded material can be before I put it on the disc? For some reason, I thought that since I read that the player supports atrac and atrac 3, that meant I was limited on bitrate. Must investigate. On another tack, I was thinking about that rootkit that sony put out a while back on one of the cds they were selling. Wouldn't this have been defeated by simply recording a cd from standalone optical out to optical in, or even analog out to analog in? In the event that audio media ever gets copy protected to a large extent(cd, or whatever), wouldn't just running a line out defeat it? Seems to me that if someone had a minidisc back in 2005, casual copying would be super easy. I also read up on something called "Trusted Computing". Scary stuff, but those who would have older tech would be able to get around it fairly easily. This experiment has already yielded dividends, insofar as educating myself. I am also(even before I have received my player only unit)considering the purchase of another unit that will have mic, line in, and such, to experiment with my fiances mother's old vinyl records. Could it be that we as a culture are blindly embracing new tech that can be used to limit what we used to do with the older tech it replaces? Sorry for the ramblings, but I'm learning new things, and that is always exciting.

[sfbp]

Well, I found sonic stage 4.3, and after a good nights sleep, am about to start ripping my cd's into the atrac 3 format. I took a listen to some samples of 64k and 132k atrac vs the original wave file, and I'm impressed as to the sound quality. How come this format was never released by sony freely, and handed out to people?

The theory seems to be (others will add, amend or even delete!) along the lines of:

a. Sony is answerable to its music division and dollars gained selling MD might be lost in CD sales

b. Sony once had a trillion dollar (maybe I exaggerate) lawsuit that went all the way to the Supreme Court of USA - they don't want another. It was about VCR's (they were the pioneer) and copying and the "fair use" doctrine.

c. There are indications of putting just enough features in to sell recorders but crippling it just enough to prevent "abuse" (whatever that might be, and according to whoever).

I wouldn't use LP4 for anything except speech, personally. But your ears will be your guide. If you're seeking to cram stuff onto a single disk, you gotta go HiMD. You can get almost 5 hours of LP2 in Atrac3+ instead of 2 hrs 40, on the same 80-minute std disk.

They could have been the itunes/ipod killer; they sell the devices or get profits from licensing the tech, and everyone else has mp3 type tech years earlier. I'm assuming my george carlin stuff can be encoded at 64k. Is there some sort of limit to how high encoded material can be before I put it on the disc? For some reason, I thought that since I read that the player supports atrac and atrac 3, that meant I was limited on bitrate. Must investigate.

They DID license the technology and at least within Japan it was widely used. I'm not sure if there were other factors preventing its spread so widely elsewhere. Certainly it was never licensed to a co. outside Japan and that may have been the killing factor. Probably they don't trust their Asian neighbours very much, with some good reason. There were also some Dolby patents in the mix there - you will see that stamped on every unit ever made.

On another tack, I was thinking about that rootkit that sony put out a while back on one of the cds they were selling. Wouldn't this have been defeated by simply recording a cd from standalone optical out to optical in, or even analog out to analog in? In the event that audio media ever gets copy protected to a large extent(cd, or whatever), wouldn't just running a line out defeat it? Seems to me that if someone had a minidisc back in 2005, casual copying would be super easy.

Most devices only got optical out rather recently (I had a coax digital out with my first CD player in 1988 but then never again - I think that manufacturers realised that optical out was rather dangerous). Interestingly (to me anyway) the audio optical out on some ?current devices (eg Panasonic HDD-DVD recorder) has copy protection (SCMS) and on some (Toshiba) it does not. Go figure.

I also read up on something called "Trusted Computing". Scary stuff, but those who would have older tech would be able to get around it fairly easily. This experiment has already yielded dividends, insofar as educating myself.

Trusted computing is certainly the solution to malware. At the same time all the free copying of new music and new movies may come abruptly to a halt. However, consider this paradigm: if everyone pays a small amount for the software and entertainment content they use, instead of only a few paying lots (and then sharing it for free), perhaps affordable prices could be charged. As a software author I like the distribution aspect of such ideas.

I am also(even before I have received my player only unit)considering the purchase of another unit that will have mic, line in, and such, to experiment with my fiances mother's old vinyl records. Could it be that we as a culture are blindly embracing new tech that can be used to limit what we used to do with the older tech it replaces?

I'm absolutely sure that the main advantage of Blu-Ray and wall-size screens is not the increased definition, but the ability to sell people something encrypted that they cannot copy, as well as all the paraphernalia to play it with. Look how long regional encoding actually worked - not that long. However the new technology relies on encryption that is much closer to unbreakable.

As far as vinyl, there are some options. I like to do analogue stereo to MD deck analogue in because I believe that the decks have superior A to D converters; and you need to watch the stress on the line in connectors on the portables like a hawk as it is a potential weak point. Also you can get a USB turntable at Costco these days, though I have no clue if the cartridge is any good, and that may be the determining factor. For archiving LP's, record them at the highest rate you can (although HiMD PCM is unnecessary) and save immediately as WAV files on Windows (there's an option in Sonic Stage to do this by default that should be turned ON), so you can edit them. They can be burned as CD's (or DVD's) for archiving and to MD's for listening, later - don't waste the uploading effort by saving only the compressed copy.

Sorry for the ramblings, but I'm learning new things, and that is always exciting.

Welcome to MDCF! - we'll have you up and running in short order, I feel certain.

Stephen

[Juan22]

Why wait till next year? try minidiscs NOW!

I started a little late I gues, 2004 after having walkmans and discmans since age 8.

Well, after sleeping on it, I will go ahead with the experiment. What would be a good model of MD player/recorder that has all the inputs on it(mic, line in digital and analog) that uses only a standard AA battery? Also, just to clarify about what I saw yesterday, the 2 models were Sony MZ-S1 and Sony MZ-N510. The s1 looked real tough... Like you could drop it off a building and it would be ok. The other, not so much.

Get an MZN 707.

Its got a remote controler, a mic jack, a line in jack and control/headphones input. runs on one sinlge AA batery.

I have it and its my best one.

[Xeys_00]

I got back on ebay and am currently bidding on a new in box 707, as per the suggestion. Am also bidding on a "slightly used" green 700, with all the accessories. I think I'm gonna be fine. I'm so glad I gave ebay another chance. And it seems that the prices of standard minidisc(not hi-md) are pretty low, even for new equipment. So, I'll have a player only netmd unit, a 700 in decent shape, and a brand new 707. Now I'm on the hunt for 80 minute discs in bulk new. This is gonna be alright!

[brian10161]

Awesome mate, sounds great. Good luck on the bids!

[Juan22]

I got back on ebay and am currently bidding on a new in box 707, as per the suggestion. Am also bidding on a "slightly used" green 700, with all the accessories. I think I'm gonna be fine. I'm so glad I gave ebay another chance. And it seems that the prices of standard minidisc(not hi-md) are pretty low, even for new equipment. So, I'll have a player only netmd unit, a 700 in decent shape, and a brand new 707. Now I'm on the hunt for 80 minute discs in bulk new. This is gonna be alright!

I live in Colombia and I always get 80 minute discs at te equivalent of 2 dollars. the ones with less time are harder to find...60m, 74m

[Xeys_00]

Well, my minidisc player is here... I'll continue with my impressions and such in some other thread, I think I've played this one out. Thanks to all for the info!