Why are SP MD decks better then HiMD portables?

[Sparky191]

Many people comment on how their SP deck sounds better than their HiMD amped. Why is this? I would have expected the later codecs and especially if you use higher bitrates on the HiMD to sound better. SP at 292kps is a good bit rate and should be transparent to CD. In fact personally I think prefer the ATRAC SP over the CD sometimes. But what else are factor in why MD decks sound so good? (I don't have one, and have never heard one myself).

[greenmachine]

Higher quality AD-DA converters - in theory at least. But even nowadays portables can sound pretty decent when connected to a hifi. The output volume is usually a bit lower, but i doubt many could her a significant quality difference unless using high end equipment and listening carefully.

[eMDe]

This is a example about the relation between Soft- and Hardware.

The biggest advantage of MD Decks are the better D/A conversion and better preamps for the analog-output.

This does more effect to the Sound than the difference between Hi-SP and Sp. And Of course they improved the Sound for lower bitrates.

A comparison between Sony 940 or 980 (SP) against the Onkyo 133 (HI-SP) would be very interesting

[surripere]

The short answer is, I don't know but I've always felt it does sound better. I remember I used to use my mzn707 to record and playback through my hi fi and the deck just blew it away for sound quality, discs recorded on the deck and played in the portable sounded better than those recorded on the portable.

There is the possibility I am may be deluding myself because: (a) the volume difference, having to turn up the amplifier volume so much to get the sound I'm used to may trick me into thinking it's poorer quality, ( it's fiddly connecting it up and using it and the hassle of doing this makes me resent the absence of a himd deck which again tricks me into thinking it doesn't sound as good. However, I don't really believe this, I'll have another go at comparing later this week.

Sorry no technical input but through my speakers and amplifier the MD deck is superior

[rayzray]

i use many deck every day all day;; and my Hi-MD;s too; they all sound good for me.

i like the editing easiness of the decks; but prefer listening to music with the Hi-MD900.

yous guys are tooooo picky; and maybe envyous (sp) of all the differences;

just sit down and have a drink and enjoy.

right now, i prefer listening to silence of the Lamb.... since this is part of my name.

[ATELETRONICS]

i can easily tell the difference between a decks output and a portable. the poratble sounds like crap when hooked up to a hi-fi.

[rayzray]

i am rolling all over the floor; yous guys are great; just goes to show you how diverse we are.

maybe my decks are hooked to worster speakers and my Hi-MD is hooked up to better speakers.

i DO DJ with decks (standard MD); and when i take my Hi-MD900 in there for a stroll on the same 1000 Whatt double 18" full rangers; i can't tell the difference; even though the sound and the ppl are bouncing off the walls;; balls to be tall and miss it all..

Edited March 13, 2006 by rayzray

[danielbb90]

Maby this has something to do with the quality of connections between the decks and Hi-MD portables?

[ATELETRONICS]

i think the portables usually have weak outputs that have too much distortion.

[mercury_in_flames]

i think the portables usually have weak outputs that have too much distortion.

i aggree.

[rayzray]

now we are getting into TWO types of portables;; the ones that can and the ones that are crap.

mine has line out; all mine do; that is one of the neccessities i needed and must have.

you don't send a boy to do a man's job.

so, yous must be talking about the "can't's do" ones.

Edited March 13, 2006 by rayzray

[danielbb90]

now we are getting into TWO types of portables;; the ones that can and the ones that are crap.

mini has line out; all mine to; that is one of the neccessittees i needed and must have.

you don't send a boy to do a man's job.

so, yous moust be talking about the "can't's do" ones.

You've lost me!?

[rayzray]

was it my mis-spelling?

there seems to be portable units that have all the need I/O's and then the rest just have I/O's missing.

all the good features are taken out; just to get the price down to get the masses to "Buy" into the format.

then they are stuck; cause they enter at one level; and mature to another; but,, withoug the I/O's.

[danielbb90]

Yeh! It was the mis-spelling! lol

[mercury_in_flames]

*edited* i just read ateletronic's post again, yep nuff said there. lol

[Sparky191]

was it my mis-spelling?

there seems to be portable units that have all the need I/O's and then the rest just have I/O's missing.

all the good features are taken out; just to get the price down to get the masses to "Buy" into the format.

then they are stuck; cause they enter at one level; and mature to another; but,, withoug the I/O's.

Most of the features are minimal cost. Its simply that the masses don't need those feature.

[1kyle]

i am rolling all over the floor; yous guys are great; just goes to show you how diverse we are.

maybe my decks are hooked to worster speakers and my Hi-MD is hooked up to better speakers.

i DO DJ with decks (standard MD); and when i take my Hi-MD900 in there for a stroll on the same 1000 Whatt double 18" full rangers; i can't tell the difference; even though the sound and the ppl are bouncing off the walls;; balls to be tall and miss it all..

The Output power of the speakers has very little to do with the inherent quality of the evential sound output --- would you consider the high power speakers at a Football Stadium to produce better fidelity sound than a pair of high end Mission speakers even though those at the Stadium are rated at a higher power output.

In general High end decks have better amps, less "Wow and flutter" --although this even on a MD portable is pretty neglgible these days and high quality output matched for typical quality pre-amps that are "the front end" on high end audio listening gear.

A portable unit --especially with no decent Line out won't yield the same quality --The headphone output of the RH10 is not bad but an optical or decent line out would of course have been better --we shall have to see what the new unit delivers. You'd have to be a "Real fanatical audiophile" to really hear any noticeable difference as portables can give a pretty good account of themseleves if the recording is done properly.

HI-SP at 320 (or even 256) provided it was recorded from WAV in the first place or PCM through a decent amp will sound more than acceptable to most people.

Cheers

-K

[Sparky191]

I ask the question because so many express the opinion that their old decks sound better.

[rayzray]

i DJ with two CD decks and TWO Sony- 520 MD decks;; i find the decks just a little worser than the CD's; then i take my Hi-MD900's in for a stroll; and they BLOW oUT da decks.moral of the story, keepfeeding the aquerrils and buy NEW hi-MD's.

oh my Two MXD-D40's are pretty good sounding units; but stay home to edit and keep the dust off my power amp and Ralistic EQ. which remings me of BBQ for lunch today.

i go by my ears; screw the specs/sheet; screw the rumors; screw the masses.

Edited March 14, 2006 by rayzray

[1kyle]

I ask the question because so many express the opinion that their old decks sound better.

Another reason could be that since decks on the whole pre-date fast cheap computers and Broadband Internet --downloading relatively compressed music wasn't a common occurrence in those days -- most people used MD's for decent 292 kbs SP recording (by pretty general consent quality almost indistinguishable from normal CD's).

Computer sound cards and speakers were abysmal in those days compared with a deck hooked up to high end gear.

Even today computer sound systems sound pretty horrible for a lot of music -- they are geared more to playing games and DVD's --nothing wrong in that but there is a HUGE difference in the listening requirements of an action movie DVD in 7.1 surround sound with gunfire etc all around to an exquisite 'Cello piece played in a String quartet through top end mission speakers.

For DVD's a computer sound system can sound great -- but for serious music listening a dedicated system is far better - even today. A computer will sound OK but won't be anything like the same.

Once compressed music was easily available and of course before they were shut down -- file sharing services such as the original Napster supplied this -- then while of "Listenable" quality for 100,000's of people the quality didn't really compare with a decent SP recording made from a CD.

I think by consensus as well apart from DRM issues and other crud like that nobody will agree that downloaded music from stores such as "Itunes" etc. can compare with a properly recorded CD --there's no reason why "Itunes" etc. couldn't supply high quality uncompressed music --aparet from the normal "Piracy" paranoia.

The current Hi-MD units --certainly the RH10 if recorded at PCM / Hi-SP @ 320 or even ~ 256 provided the original source was uncompressed WAV will certinly sound very good indeed when played through a decent Amp with quality speakers.

Highly compressed music will actually sound better on "worse" equipment --it will probably depending on the compression rate sound excruciating on high end gear --so in the end "You pays your money and takes your choice".

Another "intangible" is the sheer listening experience --it's great to just sit down on a room and listen through great gear without having a computer or any other "Officy / work" type equipment around --but you can't quantify that scientifically --it's just so much more enjoyable.

Cheers

-K

[fatmuttony]

Wow, I just looked through the Equipment Browser section, and other than the NH900, no other decent Hi-MD device has a line-out. Why would they not put a line-out on a RH10?! I hope the RH1 has a line-out (and a line in and a mic in).

[1kyle]

Wow, I just looked through the Equipment Browser section, and other than the NH900, no other decent Hi-MD device has a line-out. Why would they not put a line-out on a RH10?! I hope the RH1 has a line-out (and a line in and a mic in).

NH1 has a line out

Cheers

-K

[rayzray]

Wow, I just looked through the Equipment Browser section, and other than the NH900, no other decent Hi-MD device has a line-out. Why would they not put a line-out on a RH10?! I hope the RH1 has a line-out (and a line in and a mic in).

that's why i bought TWO of them; with the intention to add them to my DJ'ing rig; fell in love with them; kept them for personal music; i am a "Ho" for good sounding equipment; (Ho = short for Hoy. that is.

[Sparky191]

1kyle - I'd assume people who prefer their MD Decks are using the same amp and speakers with their HiMD to do the comparision. Otherwise it would be meaningless.

Edited March 14, 2006 by Sparky191

[ATELETRONICS]

yes i am using the same equipment... i was just listening to something copied to my old md at old sp292 from 320 mp3.... what a difference if the source was from the cd. i can even tell the difference easily with my crappy portable output. the sp straight from cd sounds almost perfect...

[Sparky191]

yes i am using the same equipment... i was just listening to something copied to my old md at old sp292 from 320 mp3.... what a difference if the source was from the cd. i can even tell the difference easily with my crappy portable output. the sp straight from cd sounds almost perfect...

Sorry, thats transcoding. Thats a different subject completely.

[1kyle]

Hi there Sparky --you beat me to it --but this shows that people DON'T always use the same equipment / conditions or whatever for their tests.

Cheers

-K

Edited March 14, 2006 by 1kyle

[Sparky191]

We're all human...no ones perfect...etc

Edited March 14, 2006 by Sparky191

[surripere]

I was disappointed there was no line out on the RH10 but at the risk of sounding ignorent, what's the difference between a line out (optical or digital) and the headphone jack.

If line out gives a better sound through a hi fi then I might consider getting the new machine, especially if a deck doesn't appear.

[Sparky191]

My understanding is that it should full signal strength. Whereas the headphone out has a volume on it, and perhaps some EQ circuitry. So in theory the lineout should a "cleaner" more powerful signal. However a lot of modern devices use the same circuitry for both. So you have to check.

[1kyle]

My understanding is that it should full signal strength. Whereas the headphone out has a volume on it, and perhaps some EQ circuitry. So in theory the lineout should a "cleaner" more powerful signal. However a lot of modern devices use the same circuitry for both. So you have to check.

The NH1 has a line out if you can't get the new device or don't want to wait. The display is not very good however (1 line) but the remote is fine --probably the best remote in the entire series of MD portable gear since its inception way back in 1992. With the remote the limited display of the NH1 doesn't matter.

The RH10 however has a "pretty clean" output even at full volume -- apply the volume hack if yours is a European model.

I'd prefer a line out but the RH10 is fine as is. The display si just fabulous too.

I'm certainly also interested in the new RH1 --especially if it is going to be the "Last" unit.

Cheers

-K

[xatax]

Line outs usually differ from a headphone out at full volume. Headphone outs are normally 5mW + 5mW at 16 Ohms (less or more), and Line outs are usually 194mV at 10 kOhm. The sound should be more balanced and quite louder. Like one coming out from a deck. Headphone outs usually "color" their sound to make earphones/headphones sound better. Line outs are super power suckers, juice monsters, etc, though.

[KrazyIvan]

There has been some debate on whether line-outs on some portables are true line outs. Unless the unit has a dedicated line out port, it is genrally agreed that the pseudo line outs (like on my R900) merely boost the volume to max and flatten the EQ settings. I can't prove it but that has been the general concensus.

With that said, I have a deck and Hi-MD portable. I use them for totally different purposes so I can't really compare the two. For a home system I prefer to use a deck. It is just better for me. I find accessing controls and menu's on a deck when recording a lot easier than accessing a portable menu system. So, I guess for me it comes down to ergonomics and comfort when in the home environment.

[MDGB2]

Tried it before and lack of remote on hooking up a portable to a set of RCA outputs on my amp is a major pain...

(And NO, I'm not having about 5 metres of cabling so the unit is near me, defeats the object. Phono cables should be as short as possible for maximum quali-tay )

Having said that, at the moment there isn't really an alternative if you want Hi-MD...

Errrm yeah, so build a Hi-MD deck Sony, or else...

Edited March 14, 2006 by MDGB2

[burns3016]

Higher quality AD-DA converters - in theory at least. But even nowadays portables can sound pretty decent when connected to a hifi. The output volume is usually a bit lower, but i doubt many could her a significant quality difference unless using high end equipment and listening carefully.

Line-out sounds much better than headphone-out.

Edited March 14, 2006 by burns3016