A Beautiful Revelation -- the Epic MZ-RH1 Arrives

[mdmania]

I have been hoping for normalization with minidisc for almost a decade now, and thank god they finally listen. Now if only they can crossfade between songs, but that's another dream I don't think that minidisc will ever do. I'll just stick to my iPod and Rockbox with that. Anyhow, I can't wait to get the RH1 so that I can bring out my other md players and disc out from my closet.

[MDfreak]

I have been hoping for normalization with minidisc for almost a decade now, and thank god they finally listen. Now if only they can crossfade between songs, but that's another dream I don't think that minidisc will ever do. I'll just stick to my iPod and Rockbox with that. Anyhow, I can't wait to get the RH1 so that I can bring out my other md players and disc out from my closet.

The functions you mean are all ment purely for mp3-players but the RH1 isn't ment that way. Off course it can play mp3's but is a mobile recording device so that is what they focus on.

[minispecs]

I've been using Mindisc since 1997. Never seen an ad for one. Sony ought to promote the heck out of this latest unit if it's serious. Ad budgets matter. How they claim "poor market response" when no one knows about the things. Guess I'm dreaming.

Totally agree! I'm always singing it's praises (of my newest purchase) and the response I get is the pat "isn't the minidisc old technology...it's on it's way out, right?" and I defend it's honor, but it'd be nice if the public knew it was "hip" technology rather than a dinosaur, by way of cool television ads! Sell it to the MP3 crowds! Then again, I like that I have an "exlusive" product...makes me feel special . However, I also don't like the feeling that I've been supportive of something that will no longer have support and will go the way of betamax (Heaven Forfend!) At any rate, I purchased a Sony 8 track recorder the other year...I am a little sentimental.

minispecs

[Guxt]

People, I'm so happy, I'm so impressed, I can't help of thinking of how I'm going to get one of this new beauties???

I'll making a list of things that I can sell!!

And to those that always are making complains, please, stop!!!!!!!!!! This is a unit that most of us here hoped for!!!

[M.Linc]

The dynamic normalisation? That is only ment to be used during playback to give all tracks the same volume even if one track is recorded loud and the other very silent. It does not change the music itself. It just analyses a track before playback and adjusts the playback volume according to that.

Thanks for the response. Another couple of questions, then: Do you know if the unit merely sets the playback level according to the highest volume level of the track, or does it perform a more detailed analysis? And can you say it works well?

I have quite a disparity of volume levels among the tracks I've uploaded from my CDs to SonicStage, enough so in some cases that I won't put certain tracks together on the same MD disk unless I use my old deck to record them. That, of course, takes much more time than using SS to transfer the tracks to my NetMD unit. If this dynamic normalization works well, I'll be more than happy to postpone my next computer purchase so that I can get an RH-1.

[kopfhorer]

Someone please tell me, why should I spend 4 bills or so for a machine which supposedly will let me "rip" my conventional MD live recordings when for years, SONY resisted putting digital outs on its MD recorders on account of "piracy"? I spent good bread on a 1998 model SONY home MD unit with S/PDIF outs (which I'm using to transfer a concert to my hard drive as I write this) because none of the portables, even the non-SONY's (mine's a SHARP), have digital outs and SONY's recent home MD recorders don't have them either. How do I know that SONY, which is to mini-disc what Microsoft is to Windows, won't very soon decide to cut costs yet again and send the whole MD format the way of the BETAMAX?

I think I'll keep my current MD setup for as long as I have to and then upgrade to a flash recorder.

[mdmania]

Someone please tell me, why should I spend 4 bills or so for a machine which supposedly will let me "rip" my conventional MD live recordings when for years, SONY resisted putting digital outs on its MD recorders on account of "piracy"? I spent good bread on a 1998 model SONY home MD unit with S/PDIF outs (which I'm using to transfer a concert to my hard drive as I write this) because none of the portables, even the non-SONY's (mine's a SHARP), have digital outs and SONY's recent home MD recorders don't have them either. How do I know that SONY, which is to mini-disc what Microsoft is to Windows, won't very soon decide to cut costs yet again and send the whole MD format the way of the BETAMAX?

I think I'll keep my current MD setup for as long as I have to and then upgrade to a flash recorder.

No one is forcing you to buy...

[Libelula]

I wonder if the 2nd one is a spectrum analyzer. Would be really cool!

Good news: "The iconic Sony design with the spectrum analyser display encases a pocket size recording studio."

(according to this site

http://www.sony-europe.com/PageView.do?sec...ssReleaseDetail

Anyone tempted to take the hi-res pic & make a wallpaper? *g*)

Edited March 27, 2006 by Libelula

[dex Otaku]

Duuuuuuude, learn how to edit!

[fatmuttony]

As a matter of comparison, is there any way in which either Gen 1 or Gen 2 players/recorders are better than the RH1?

I can think of a dedicated line out in the NH1 and NH900 for one thing. THe 6 line display in the RH10 has been commented upon before this. Anything else?

[dex Otaku]

As a matter of comparison, is there any way in which either Gen 1 or Gen 2 players/recorders are better than the RH1?

I can think of a dedicated line out in the NH1 and NH900 for one thing.

The "dedicated line out" is the same is the RH1's line out.

The RH1 appears to have everything the NH1 does except for full support for the MC40 3-line remote [might be fixed by the time official release rolls around], plus a few improvements and totally new features [MP3 playback, MDLP upload support, improvements to recording settings, OLED display, &c.].

[Qwakrz]

NH1 is very very slightly smaller.

All but NH1 have more information on there displays

All but the NH1 & the camera one take NiHM or AA cells in some way

but over all this.... the RH1 is just... well, it is so much better than what has preceeded it.

Oh, I think the 40ELK remote will work as the Japan website has it as an option for the RH1. Think it may just need the change in settings the same as the RH10 needed to make it work.

Edited March 27, 2006 by Qwakrz

[fatmuttony]

Woohoo! That's good news then!

Ok, so if one were to make a list of the package that they might want to purchase. What all do you think will go into this package?

1) RH1

2) 3 (?) Batteries

3) 10 (?) 1GB Blanks (Obviously fewer or none for those that already own a bunch of blanks)

4) Remote (?) if none owned previously (model number?)

5) Case (??)

Anything else?

[matthewricha]

One thing I can think of is that the MZ-NH1 can record in old SP and LP modeS on standard minidiscs. Don't know if the MZ-RH1 can. Mind you I don't use this function as much I thought I would after upgrading from MZ-R50!

BTW this is my first post!

MZ-R1 looks awesome!

Check this link out too, it gives a price for the unit in the UK when it arrives in May.

http://www.stuffmag.co.uk/hotstuffarticle.asp?de_id=1448

Lion

NH1 is very very slightly smaller.

All but NH1 have more information on there displays

All but the NH1 & the camera one take NiHM or AA cells in some way

but over all this.... the RH1 is just... well, it is so much better than what has preceeded it.

Oh, I think the 40ELK remote will work as the Japan website has it as an option for the RH1. Think it may just need the change in settings the same as the RH10 needed to make it work.

[raintheory]

One thing I can think of is that the MZ-NH1 can record in old SP and LP modeS on standard minidiscs. Don't know if the MZ-RH1 can. Mind you I don't use this function as much I thought I would after upgrading from MZ-R50!

I was wondering the same thing, if the RH1 would record in the legacy formats... Would make sense since you can upload those formats, but I kind of doubt it since the 2nd gen lacked this feature.

Anyway, welcome to the forums!

[veezhun]

it can record legacy modes.. the only bummer is the battery

[Hungerdunger]

http://www.stuffmag.co.uk/hotstuffarticle.asp?de_id=1448

Lion

Hopefully Amazon will be able to shave a few pounds off the quoted price of 240 UKP. I got my RH10 there for around 155 UKP, so I would hope they could do the RH1 for around 200 UKP. (If they decide to take it at all - anyone here got connections with the buying department in Amazon??)

[matthewricha]

Hopefully Amazon will be able to shave a few pounds off the quoted price of 240 UKP. I got my RH10 there for around 155 UKP, so I would hope they could do the RH1 for around 200 UKP. (If they decide to take it at all - anyone here got connections with the buying department in Amazon??)

Yeah I should Imagine that one would be able to get it for around 200 quid as you say. Had better sell my 3 month old MZ-NH1 then

Went to my local sony shop in Chelmsford and the man there showed me the MZ-RH1 in a special broshure for the salesmen to show them what was coming in May. I asked about MD Decks and he went to the section and the current standard decks mds-jb980 I think and 480?? where labelled as discontinued as of End of March and there were no new ones added. I guess this is why the MZ-RH1 has a bright OLED display on the side of the unit so that it can be mounted ontop of a hifi and be seen. I think it's a fantastic Idea!!

Incidentally the "1 line display" that peops are refering to seems to be actually 2 separate displays. If you look carfully at the hi-res pictures you can see contrast differences. Also its dot matrix so if text was small enought I reckon 2 lines of text could be shown??

Lion

[Berke]

Did some more testing and here are some interesting results.... I already stated that it seemed that Sony fixed the mp3-playback (which had a drop-off in the high frequencies). After hearing it I now also analysed the sound by computer and here is the corresponding chart:

Click for a larger view:

Purple: original wav/pcm file

Green: ATRAC3plus @ 256 kbps

Red: LAME mp3 @ 256 kbps (CBR)

So no drop off in the mp3 anymore! After hearing no difference anymore it is nice to see my hearing isn't letting me down

The dynamic normalisation? That is only ment to be used during playback to give all tracks the same volume even if one track is recorded loud and the other very silent. It does not change the music itself. It just analyses a track before playback and adjusts the playback volume according to that.

Is it just me or do I still see the drop-off at the frequency end... The red line seems still too different at the end. Or is vastly better than the previous mp3 drequency tests?

[MDfreak]

Is it just me or do I still see the drop-off at the frequency end... The red line seems still too different at the end. Or is vastly better than the previous mp3 drequency tests?

Yeah ok, but that drop-off is above 19 KHz. Much better than a dropoff that starts @ 10 KHz. And after analysing the mp3-file that drop-off is also in the original mp3 (so this drop-off is caused by the mp3-encoding, not by the RH1 playing the file).

Edited March 27, 2006 by MDfreak

[peare]

I tried to read this thread completely... sorry if that is already mentioned. MDfreak you are the only one in possession of a RH1. We understand that this gem is able to record in old SP amd MDLP as was NH1. What about the new bitrates? Could you transfer tracks encoded other than 64, 192 and 256? What about atrac lossless?

[Qwakrz]

Is it just me or do I still see the drop-off at the frequency end... The red line seems still too different at the end. Or is vastly better than the previous mp3 drequency tests?

Yes, thats why MP3 is not a good audio codec as it always has that drop. The drop though is at 19KHz and should not be noticable by many people (some dogs might notice though). The old playback used to have a massive cut at the 10KHz point causing a loss of high frequencies (basically, imagine that drop point appearing half way along the graph and not at the end)

-edit- God this thread updates quickly....

Edited March 27, 2006 by Qwakrz

[alrose312]

Any difference in sound quality with the RH1 and other units? I understand that the RH1 is targeted to the "recorder" market - and I think this is a smart move - but one of the reasons I love my NH900 is the high quality playback sound it gives me (especially with Hi-SP and PCM).

[MDfreak]

Any difference in sound quality with the RH1 and other units? I understand that the RH1 is targeted to the "recorder" market - and I think this is a smart move - but one of the reasons I love my NH900 is the high quality playback sound it gives me (especially with Hi-SP and PCM).

The RH1 an NH900 have the same HD digital amplifier so you can presume they sound pretty much the same. Probably the RH1 even sounds a bit better as says it improved the soundquality by changing some parts around the amplifier-chip.

[MDnewuser]

Been looking around for an MD deck for a while, but havent bought any though the atrac version has been obsolete. What is the advantage of buying the MZ-RH1 ?, if i can copy from deck to Hi-MD (optical) and then to Sonicstage ?. Double job maybe, i guess time will tell, also a bit depending on the price on the unit. Dont have so many mono SP LP2 LP4 recordings but i have felt that its been boring transferring real-time + the added noise.

[orymd]

hi at all. i want to ask if the limitation of the info about title/artidt/album only on the remote control maybe deleted and the info displayed on the unit too...

[ZosoIV]

Yes, thats why MP3 is not a good audio codec as it always has that drop. The drop though is at 19KHz and should not be noticable by many people (some dogs might notice though). The old playback used to have a massive cut at the 10KHz point causing a loss of high frequencies (basically, imagine that drop point appearing half way along the graph and not at the end)

-edit- God this thread updates quickly....

The "drop" you see isn't because of the MP3 format, but because of LAME's lowpass settings for 256kbps CBR. There's so little music past 18 or 19kHz that the developers choose to use a lowpass of 19 or 20kHz and save those extra bits for more important signals.

To really test to see if the frequency response of MP3 is completely flat, you'd have to use something like "--preset insane -k" or "--preset insane --lowpass 22050." I suspect it is, though.

[MDfreak]

The "drop" you see isn't because of the MP3 format, but because of LAME's lowpass settings for 256kbps CBR. There's so little music past 18 or 19kHz that the developers choose to use a lowpass of 19 or 20kHz and save those extra bits for more important signals.

To really test to see if the frequency response of MP3 is completely flat, you'd have to use something like "--preset insane -k" or "--preset insane --lowpass 22050." I suspect it is, though.

I don't think that is needed because I already compared the frequencyresponse of the original mp3 with that of the mp3 played back by the RH1. Both responses match nicely!

[sallymae_hogsby]

MDfreak,

I'm assuming your unit doesn't have the Mac software with it, or that you don't have a Mac?

I'm trying to find out if it's still the basic PCM-only upload Mac software, or whether the Mac software has more options now.

Thanks.

[kardemena]

So, the biggest news of this release is that it can upload non Hi-MD audio; anything recorded by NetMD is not allowed to be uploaded, unfortunately. So that means all of your old SP and MDLP live recordings can finally be uploaded via USB! For example, an SP mode track uploaded to Sonicstage 3.4 will be converted to PCM or Hi-SP (your choice)

Will it be necessary to buy the new player to transfer SP recordings to computer? I have an MZ-N510 and am wondering if this will be liberated by improvements to SonicStage.

[jadeclaw]

Yes. Your MZ-N510 is still unable to upload SP/MDLP recordings.

NetMD-Recorders don't have the necessary hardware to do the upload.

An open source project trying to persuade NetMD-recorders to upload ran into a wall at that point.

To upload SP/MDLP, you have to buy the new RH1. Or go the old route through Line-In.

[batfastad]

WOW!!!!!

This is just what I always dreamed of!!

Shame about the display though - looks pretty small stuck on the side there.

Nice EQ on it though.

I'd probably use my multi-line RM-MC40ELK for playback.

If I ever have a need to get all my old minidisc recordings onto computer then I'm so there with this device.

A big round of applause to Sony!!

[MDfreak]

MDfreak,

I'm assuming your unit doesn't have the Mac software with it, or that you don't have a Mac?

I'm trying to find out if it's still the basic PCM-only upload Mac software, or whether the Mac software has more options now.

Thanks.

It will have much more options (I saw a Powerpoint-sheet of what Sony intends to do for MAC and that is much more than we already know from the professional M-series).

And no, I do not have the MAC-software (because it is not ready yet) but I do know where to find a MAC to test it all when the software is available.

Furthermore I updated my mp3-playback analysis:

Green: original wav/pcm file

Red: ATRAC3plus @ 256 kbps

Purple: mp3 @ 256 kbps (CBR)

Click for a larger view:

So my conclusion still holds: the mp3-playback flaw is fixed!

Edited March 27, 2006 by MDfreak

[jadeclaw]

That looks very good. I do have quite an amount of MP3-Stuff to play...

Another question: Which standalone recording modes are offered by the RH1?

Only Hi-SP/Hi-LP/PCM or other bitrates as well?

[MDfreak]

That looks very good. I do have quite an amount of MP3-Stuff to play...

Another question: Which standalone recording modes are offered by the RH1?

Only Hi-SP/Hi-LP/PCM or other bitrates as well?

The usual once:

PCM, Hi-SP and Hi-LP in Hi-MD mode.

SP, LP2 and LP4 in MD mode.

I think that that is enough choice for everyone to find an appropriate bitrate for recording.

[jadeclaw]

Thanks MDFreak for the info.

I do had hoped for 352k as a SuperSP and LP2 in Hi-MD-mode for FM-Radio-recordings.

Good to know, that regular MD-Recording is back.

Edited March 27, 2006 by jadeclaw

[streaml1ne]

MDFreak, have you noticed if the RH1 tells you estimated battery life remaining like the NH1 does?

[floz23]

It will have much more options (I saw a Powerpoint-sheet of what Sony intends to do for MAC and that is much more than we already know from the professional M-series).

And no, I do not have the MAC-software (because it is not ready yet) but I do know where to find a MAC to test it all when the software is available.

Furthermore I updated my mp3-playback analysis:

Green: original wav/pcm file

Red: ATRAC3plus @ 256 kbps

Purple: mp3 @ 256 kbps (CBR)

Click for a larger view:

So my conclusion still holds: the mp3-playback flaw is fixed!

Does this suggest that the LAME encoder is better than Atrac? Seems to me, that LAME, now, as opposed to your original chart, is closer to the PCM.

-Adam

[astranovus]

i can see myself using this machine for about 3 years before its worn out.

that was the cyle of my old sony and sharp md portables.

i do hope sony will have spare li-ion batteries for the forseeable future,

according to wikipedia, li-ions degenerate at 20%!!!!!!!!! yes 20% per year at 25 degrees room temperature

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion_battery

this is independent of the amount of times you recharge the battery

why the hell is there no sidecar???

anybody got playback times for 192bks mp3s , all my music is in this format, mainly listen to dj sets

i'm not totally convinced by this player, but mp3flash players have been poor regarding audio quality,

i own the sony e-407, great battery life but audio quality is just above par (does the trick in the gym though)

i hope the amps and build quality of this machine are really good, so that they surpass apple's ipod with respect to mp3 playback, (anybody able to answer this , mdfreak perhaps?)

as i receive most of my music in mp3 transcoding to atrac is not really an option because of the resulting quality loss

Does this suggest that the LAME encoder is better than Atrac? Seems to me, that LAME, now, as opposed to your original chart, is closer to the PCM.

-Adam

mp3 in itself isn't bad at all , it's just old compared to some of the newer atrac codecs.

i really doubt that anybody can hear the difference between 256 mp3 and atrac.

plus i really don't get the codec discussion for on the run playback, background noises are so loud, no codec above 128 is going to shine through,

the new 66kbs atracplus seems to be ok for on the move music, as long as it's created from a cd or wav, transcoding results in severe artifacts

[orymd]

the human can ear up to 22kHz frequency.... at this frequency the loss of atrac & mp3 isn't too big....