bit rates? is my hearing bad?

[jammydodger1]

cards on the table. I use my hi md portable recorder always on 48kbps either with a hi md disc or a re-formatted standard MD as I want value for money from my discs, and will mostly be listening from the unit I record with on cheapish sony headphones, or through my amplifier with decent mission bookshelf speakers and I can only detect a small difference from the original source of music which nowadays is mostly mp3 anyway, so already compressed.

second card on table is with my netmd I also record any new stuff I download at MDLP4 for two reasons firstly because this is how I archived my CD collection which got me into MD in the first place like 12 13 years ago, and I have a sony MD deck connected to good hi fi equipment as mentioned above and this is an MDLP model and again I cannot hear much of a difference from the original source even CD. not to mention the fact I find MDLP very good value for money on discs.

third card, I actually like sonicstage software and use it all the time for importing those mp3 files onto both the himd and the netmd any music I want to keep permanently goes onto himd at 48kbps and another copy on the netmd at MDLP4.

is it my amp and speakers that make it sound still ok? is it sony headphones full over ear types? or is my hearing bad? what is peoples thoughts on this?

[netmduser]

This is how good the lp4 actually is. You did it the right way from a high quality source (CD).

Age has an effect on ear's ability to discerne high frequencies.

[SileEeles]

From what I've heard personally (my hearing probably isn't that brilliant since I listen to a lot of loud music) LP4 is acceptable. There are instances where artifacts are audible, but I only ever noticed them with earphones on/in. Through a HiFi makes no difference to me, however there is a noticeable difference in clarity to me. LP2 and SP have more of a clearer high end, but this is just what I observe.

[trotter]

LP4 is dynamically compressed in terms of the lowest to the highest volume.

in other words it sounds "sat on".

I use LP4 for sports radio.

LP2 for FM radio music broadcasts

and SP for CD or vinyl recording.

[jammydodger1]

LP4 is dynamically compressed in terms of the lowest to the highest volume.

in other words it sounds "sat on".

I use LP4 for sports radio.

LP2 for FM radio music broadcasts

and SP for CD or vinyl recording.

then my hearing must be screwed cause most of my high compressions sound fine, actually MDLP4 sounds great! to me anyhow, but as I say my ears must me wrecked so pcm or even LP2 would be wasted on me.

48kbps himd sounds just fine for mp3 and radio podcasts on low volume at work all day, but I agree that it would be tragic to compress vinyl now that's a whole other story. thanks for your input.

[freddyjollo]

I too like Sonic Stage - it has come a long way from the original messy console software. If you have GBs of recordings you do need some way to organise them? Ok no drag and drop. I do notice a difference with LP4, only reserve that for speech - which is most of my recordings, of BBC shows. Music lacks sparkle and sounds sat upon as trotter says; but the brain is a wonderful thing and I find over time I adjust if i record in LP4. The "new" atrac codecs are wonderful; shame only available for himd machines. One thing you do need to do over time is to remove any ear wax from any earbuds - if that gets inside can affect the sound. I have a pair of Sony MDR21 now discontinued. I lost one channel nearly, was about to bin them but pressed the "trumpet" that creates a seal and got the sound back - so took it off to remove ear wax. As good as new now.

[jammydodger1]

I too like Sonic Stage - it has come a long way from the original messy console software. If you have GBs of recordings you do need some way to organise them? Ok no drag and drop. I do notice a difference with LP4, only reserve that for speech - which is most of my recordings, of BBC shows. Music lacks sparkle and sounds sat upon as trotter says; but the brain is a wonderful thing and I find over time I adjust if i record in LP4. The "new" atrac codecs are wonderful; shame only available for himd machines. One thing you do need to do over time is to remove any ear wax from any earbuds - if that gets inside can affect the sound. I have a pair of Sony MDR21 now discontinued. I lost one channel nearly, was about to bin them but pressed the "trumpet" that creates a seal and got the sound back - so took it off to remove ear wax. As good as new now.

cant use the ear buds, I have full over ear jobs, dj type ones. lp4 is way better than himd 48kbps of that there is no doubt or in fact the 64kpbs or the next maybe even. obviously uncompressed is the best of all, but for me it defeats the purpose of owning a netmd with mdlp or a himd unit with its associated bit rates. if I want to listen to music in its best form I will listen to a CD through an amp and bookshelf speakers but iam not sure that anybody really sits and listens to CDs anymore I rarely do.

[PhilippeC]

if I want to listen to music in its best form I will listen to a CD through an amp and bookshelf speakers but iam not sure that anybody really sits and listens to CDs anymore I rarely do.

What ? Still many people who listen to CD, specially those who like high quality sound.

[jammydodger1]

What ? Still many people who listen to CD, specially those who like high quality sound.

the point of this post is however I cant really tell the difference anymore because my hearing is not as astute as it once was maybe. honestly I have not put a cd into a player in years other than to archive onto minidisc. minidisc replaced the cd for me then digital downloads killed it.

vinyl sounds better or at least warmer to me.

[trott3r]

Vinyl can sound analytical as well it just depends on your turntable.

The michell TTs usually have an analytical sound.

[THIS SUCKS]

i think your hearing is bad and your headhpones definitly suck. it might even be possible that your bookshelf system isnt that good either. lp4 is only good for speech and 48kbps even more so. use hi-sp, lp2, or old sp, or pcm for music. it should be relly easy to hear the difference.

[jammydodger1]

i think your hearing is bad and your headhpones suck. it might even be possible that your bookshelf system isnt that good either. lp4 is only good for speech and 48kbps even more so. use hi-sp, lp2, or old sp, or pcm for music. it should be relly easy to hear the difference.

my hearing sucks perhaps and perhaps the headphones do too but not my separates all are good quality and the speakers and all the interconnects are high end too thick loudspeaker cable and thick well made av cables connected and setup properly and acoustically positioned. I hear a slight difference through my CD separate from my portable himd through the amp and a minimum difference through my md unit with mdlp4 through my amp also therefore I think I've lost a bit of my hearing.

I think folks are too hard on mdlp 4 it's more than ok imho and himd at 48kbps is fine for listening to podcasts and downloaded mp 3 tracks through headphones at work or doing the gardening ect.

I respect all opinions and observations but also like people to respect mine, but in an audio forum it's wise not to make assumptions as to how good or bad a person's equipment is everything I use is Sony apart from my amp which is a lovely piece of kit known as a digital t Amp and my speakers are made by mission which if you know audio equipment are more than good enough.

Thanks for your reply.

[kalkie]

The most important question is: Are you enjoying listening to your music the way you use your equipment?

I think your answer is: Yes!

You tried different settings and choosed what you prefer most, both for sq and for discspace.

It is a matter of taste and everyone will try different settings and choose the setting he or she like the most.

Believe your own ears and not the ears of somebody else.

So, be happy and keep enjoying music!

[jammydodger1]

The most important question is: Are you enjoying listening to your music the way you use your equipment?

I think your answer is: Yes!

You tried different settings and choosed what you prefer most, both for sq and for discspace.

It is a matter of taste and everyone will try different settings and choose the setting he or she like the most.

Believe your own ears and not the ears of somebody else.

So, be happy and keep enjoying music!

thanks yes I will do it the way I want and I am enjoying using my mini disc equipment again after a bit of a break. just informative to hear opinions, it keeps the interest going for me I guess.

I am no audiophile as iam sure you all quest from my love of mdlp4 and massively compressed himd. I guess in a sense my separate hi fi equipment is maybe too good for my audio usage and needs but this is probably why I and everybody else who hears my mini discs think they sound so good.

thanks to everybody for your comments some positive some not as much, but most important of all its all opinions effectively about something which in terms of modern day tech is forgotten by most of the world but not by us.............thanks.

[PhilippeC]

I have used the Hi-MD modes (minimum 192 kbps) when my NH900 still operated and it was also the time I used a 2.1 Logitech loudspeakers set with my laptop. After the buttons of my NH900 started to fail, it was the time I got an opportunity for my first RH1 and some standard MD and Net-MD units, pushing me to choose a more common mode for my recordings. I bought my decks,a MBS-B5 (pro, only SP unit) and a JB980, both connected at my separates audiophile system (Cyrus IIi ampli+ since one month my Rega Ela loudspeakers again, imported from France). No Hi-MD modes for my recordings since, above all because I listen music 95% of my time at home using my MD980 deck.

As I really love touching OFTEN my MD blanks as I did with LP and K7, no too-long time recording for me, LP2 is my choice only when it is a double CD album. No physical contact, my good reason to hate MP3, more than the audio quality itself.

I store also all the (good) albums I have downloaded (I remind you that I live in Asia) on CD-Rom and most of my lossless albums (never more MP3) are recorded finally on MDs in real time. I have plenty of MD blanks, thank to Sergio.

[sescoscuba]

[jim.hoggarth]

I have the usual age-related deterioration of high and low frequencies, but since my first introduction to MDs some eight/nine years ago (I can't recall exactly - I know it was a birthday), I have always disliked LP4 for music. I am ok with LP2 for portable use, say while walking. But for general and home use, it has to be SP. Due to never getting into HiMD properly, I never really tried the ATRAC3 encoding modes. And I have *always* had my treble control cranked up (and sometimes the bass slightly diminished) on all of the audio units I have possessed. Perhaps my upper hearing limit has always been low, although I have always liked a very 'crisp' sound. But that said, I do remember being able to hear the 19KHz carrier tone on FM radio units - not on audio out of course as that is filtered, but by putting a crystal earpiece across the correct part of the circuit.

Jim

[jammydodger1]

I have the usual age-related deterioration of high and low frequencies, but since my first introduction to MDs some eight/nine years ago (I can't recall exactly - I know it was a birthday), I have always disliked LP4 for music. I am ok with LP2 for portable use, say while walking. But for general and home use, it has to be SP. Due to never getting into HiMD properly, I never really tried the ATRAC3 encoding modes. And I have *always* had my treble control cranked up (and sometimes the bass slightly diminished) on all of the audio units I have possessed. Perhaps my upper hearing limit has always been low, although I have always liked a very 'crisp' sound. But that said, I do remember being able to hear the 19KHz carrier tone on FM radio units - not on audio out of course as that is filtered, but by putting a crystal earpiece across the correct part of the circuit.

Jim

age must have a bit to do with it, I blame being too close to the base bins when I was a doorman in a night club for some of it too. of course I can tell the difference from sp and compressed I have done a check since writing this but its very minimal. iam not even 40 yet so hardly that old but have noticed a difference in the last 10 years or so, been using mdlp4 for just over that.

the point really is that IMHO its not a massive difference and the point also is that I quess since posting this I now realize that this is the reason why I chose to buy a net md(mzn 520, type s) all those years ago was to get 4 of my cd albums onto 1 disc and get the cds of into the roofspace so I suppose I have never ever used sp either for that comparison. I then bought a deck with mdlp (mds je470) think its type r? followed by my himd mznh 600 which for an entry level model is a super wee item indeed.

so for 10 plus years I haven't really sat and listened to a cd or any other uncompressed audio so iam conditioned maybe and my amp and speakers maybe umph up the sound somewhat to sound better. but I mostly use the himd now on the 48kbps for podcasts with earphones. cheers for reply.

[freddyjollo]

age related hearing - I think the brain compensates to a degree? Maybe you cann't hear dog whistles any more but music doesnt sound dull, unless you are really going deaf? I am old but full range music dont seem dull to me. BBC Radio 1 & 2 DAB seems bright to me. One factor is volume esp with louspeakers - the tonal balance changes the lower the volume with many speakers, less bright. As you get older maybe you dont want the head banging of youth?

[jammydodger1]

age related hearing - I think the brain compensates to a degree? Maybe you cann't hear dog whistles any more but music doesnt sound dull, unless you are really going deaf? I am old but full range music dont seem dull to me. BBC Radio 1 & 2 DAB seems bright to me. One factor is volume esp with louspeakers - the tonal balance changes the lower the volume with many speakers, less bright. As you get older maybe you dont want the head banging of youth?

my hearing is apparently fine so my doctor says anyway. I listen low most of the time on earphones or on my separate, cant abide music too loud to be honest. DAB isn't a great reception where I live but the bbc ones work great at least and I can tell the difference between fm and DAB, DAB is clearer and easier to listen too.

[Another MD fanatic]

Very interesting reading. Without doubt we all to some degree become "brainwashed" by what we're used to hearing. For example, if you've been listening to the same gear for 10 years then try something different chances are you won't like it simply for that reason - it's different!

And of course we all have our individual tastes and preferences. I've got a portable Tascam PCM recorder that has such clarity that to my ears make it sound cold, clinical, hard, bright, etc. Whatever you want to call it, you get the picture. Put it this way, it certainly won't be replacing my MD's.

My experiments with LP4 were unfortunately a disaster, lots of nasty audible artefacts. I found LP2 to be ok and I would guess perfectly good enough for a large proportion of people. I don't normally use it due to the compatibility issue. Obviously ALL my portable players will play SP but only a couple will play LP modes. Can't comment on HiMD, never had one.

Having said all that I still believe in the old saying "Listen to the music, not the faults". On your MD of course!

[jammydodger1]

Very interesting reading. Without doubt we all to some degree become "brainwashed" by what we're used to hearing. For example, if you've been listening to the same gear for 10 years then try something different chances are you won't like it simply for that reason - it's different!

And of course we all have our individual tastes and preferences. I've got a portable Tascam PCM recorder that has such clarity that to my ears make it sound cold, clinical, hard, bright, etc. Whatever you want to call it, you get the picture. Put it this way, it certainly won't be replacing my MD's.

My experiments with LP4 were unfortunately a disaster, lots of nasty audible artefacts. I found LP2 to be ok and I would guess perfectly good enough for a large proportion of people. I don't normally use it due to the compatibility issue. Obviously ALL my portable players will play SP but only a couple will play LP modes. Can't comment on HiMD, never had one.

Having said all that I still believe in the old saying "Listen to the music, not the faults". On your MD of course!

in my house there is ipods, ipads, sandisk mp3 players, dab radios, fm radios, separate md decks and cd players. and obviously md portables. I of course use the md equipment and am slightly biased toward it but I honestly cant tell that much of a difference when compressed.

right if pushed id say the sound quality is in this order all through the same source my amp and decent speakers.

1- without doubt the cd separate

2- the md deck

3- mdlp4 portable

4- DAB

5-himd 48kbps

6-sandisk mp3 the wifes

7-fm radio

8-all things apple belonging to the kids. CRAP!

all in all give or take, all not bad apart from apple and fm which sound the worst. I wanted to put the himd above DAB but iam being honest. still for what it is mdlp4 and himd 48kbps its really very good and again I say FOR WHAT IT IS.

[trott3r]

Hmm surprised that you have fm below dab.

FM would probably sound better than DAB nowadays unless you listen to bbc radio 3 which still has some decent bitrates of 160kbps. Since the bbc started one xtra and asian network they have had to reduce the bitrate of their other stations to "fit" them in to the limited band.

It will of course depend on the source ie radio statoin and equipment.

[Arr-Nine-Hundred]

I'd say "whatever works for you" jammydodger but I'd encourage you to do a reasonable A/B test with LP2 and LP4 and see if you can hear the difference.

I definitely can hear the difference. In fact I find LP2 close to SP. I know Stephen will disagree and he gave me some LP4 recordings which "show it off" a while back which I have yet to listen to them (sorry sfbp!).

imho LP2 is the ideal sweet spot between quality and amount of music (2 "albums" per disk). I would not consider any MD equipment without MDLP.

[jammydodger1]

Hmm surprised that you have fm below dab.

FM would probably sound better than DAB nowadays unless you listen to bbc radio 3 which still has some decent bitrates of 160kbps. Since the bbc started one xtra and asian network they have had to reduce the bitrate of their other stations to "fit" them in to the limited band.

It will of course depend on the source ie radio statoin and equipment.

just seems to be a slight background noise on fm for me. dab sound obviously more digitized for want of a better phrase but just sharper and clearer to me.

[jammydodger1]

I'd say "whatever works for you" jammydodger but I'd encourage you to do a reasonable A/B test with LP2 and LP4 and see if you can hear the difference.

I definitely can hear the difference. In fact I find LP2 close to SP. I know Stephen will disagree and he gave me some LP4 recordings which "show it off" a while back which I have yet to listen to them (sorry sfbp!).

imho LP2 is the ideal sweet spot between quality and amount of music (2 "albums" per disk). I would not consider any MD equipment without MDLP.

I carried out an lp2 verses lp4 test recorded with an mzn 510 and an mzn 520 both bit rates on both units. played them back through each unit and on my mds je470 deck and thru my himd recorder mznh 600. and yes its sharper clearer and I think louder but not enough for me to use it permanently.

perhaps I may use it or in fact sp for new music I download or cds I buy from now on. the lp4 was great for archiving a massive cd collection and boxing them up in the roof space. I would defo consider lp2 now, your right it is very close to the original source.

lp4 was the reason I bought a netmd mdlp recorder in the first place to archive the said cd collection, I actually looked at MD as just a one of use after I had done that task I never expected to record anything on it again. that was 11 years ago and I havnt stopped using it, I hadn't even considerd downloading mp3 and podcasts and using it for that it was just to archive my cds but I got hooked. thanks for your interest.

[THIS SUCKS]

you will find that if you are sitting and listening to lp4 on headphones it makes you tired and sleepy while sp and lp2 dont do that. give it a try and let me know what happens... its fine if you are mowing the lawn or fixing something...

[PhilippeC]

I never listened to that DAB, even if it has been tested in France.

[sfbp]

I definitely can hear the difference. In fact I find LP2 close to SP. I know Stephen will disagree and he gave me some LP4 recordings which "show it off" a while back which I have yet to listen to them (sorry sfbp!).

Actually that's not quite my take. I have no dispute that LP2 is generally much better.

My point has always been that it's amazingly possible to get really good recordings on LP4, particularly if they are of the right bitrate to begin with. For example internet broadcasts of classical music can be superb. However it takes very little to upset this, and one thing that does is a MONO announcer, because now the slight deviations from Joint Stereo show up as strange sibilants.

Generally I like opera better on LP2, this must be because the human voice is more taxing for the codec.

But MDietrich's point about cutting off the high frequencies is well-taken. That's why recording a 128kbps stream works well with LP4 but a 320kbps stream may require LP2. The former simply has less high frequencies in it.

[jammydodger1]

Actually that's not quite my take. I have no dispute that LP2 is generally much better.

My point has always been that it's amazingly possible to get really good recordings on LP4, particularly if they are of the right bitrate to begin with. For example internet broadcasts of classical music can be superb. However it takes very little to upset this, and one thing that does is a MONO announcer, because now the slight deviations from Joint Stereo show up as strange sibilants.

Generally I like opera better on LP2, this must be because the human voice is more taxing for the codec.

But MDietrich's point about cutting off the high frequencies is well-taken. That's why recording a 128kbps stream works well with LP4 but a 320kbps stream may require LP2. The former simply has less high frequencies in it.

128kpbs is the standard mp3 I believe isn't it? downloaded mp3 sounds good enough to me converted to atrac through sonicstage and recorded at lp4 as do mp3 radio podcasts,the podcasts don't sound as good when recorded at sp or even lp2 to me somehow, strange.

128kpbs mp3s sound exactly the same when put through sonicstage onto himd at 48kpbs, to me they do anyhow.

now that test I done was with CD where lp2 defo sounded better than lp4 and 48kpbs himd, but downloads sound great with atrac lp4 and atrac himd 48kpbs and from what your saying you think it sound pretty good too.

thanks for you input, this is the sort of though provoking I wanted when I posted this. I find these compression bit rates very interesting and for all sony mini discs issues, for me atrac and sonicstage wasn't one of them for the most part there compression is still miles ahead of mp3, shame really that it never went mainstream apart from us crazy folks.

[trott3r]

It did go mainstrean in japan AFAIK.

Did fairly well in the UK particularly within the hifi enthusiasts like me afer v4 of ATRAC came along.

The problem was it didnt do to well in america