Defying Expectations, Third Generation Hi-MD Unit Surfaces?

[Spare Tire]

No way you'd find AA battery in a high end unit. Too ugly, too bulky. The add on AA case, like it has always been done, is the way to go.

[Dmitry.Korobkov]

1) tiny display like MZ-NH1 - at least 3 line necessary, IMO (but 3-line would be hard to fit on the side, so possibly a reasonable compromise for those benefiting from a display on the edge of the unit).

2) most likely a bad choice of display for full-sun/outdoor applications (or "leave it on the desk and observe from above" viewpoints). Can't win 'em all.

The remote control unit like RM-MC40ELK with contrast white-black display may compensate oled display on unit. IMO of course.

What will make me buy at the asking price?

1) USB On-The-Go functionality to save digital camera pics to while on-the-go (!).

2) Native drag-n-drop for audio recordings (no SonicStage whatsoever)

May be you are right, but OTG has reason with more when 1Gb media size.

[edi800]

Hi friends,

why do you consider the new MZ-RH1 interesting? It still uses the 1GB disc and the transfer rate is (well) "unsatisfying". I think that this new MD model comes much too late. Should have been here two years ago.

I have the MZ-NH900 and MZ-RH10 and have used them many times. And I have frequently had the dreaded "Access error" during download of the recording to PC.

But recently I found something like this:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Micr...k2496-main.html

This records straight to CF card (eg. 2GB, enough for more than 2 hours of 24bit WAV), and there's no Sonicstage - just files on a filesystem. I'm considering buying this thing and dumping both of my MDs.

For me, to record a live show on this Microtrack device and transfer it almost instantly via USB2.0 is much easier and faster than to wait 20 minutes when Sonicstage transfers my PCM recording (not to mention access errors). Additionally, there's no 90 minutes limit on the recording. And you can record in 16 bit and in 24 bit, and also the sampling frequency - 44/48/96 kHz.

Sorry Sony, you are too late :-(

Do you see any real arguments in favor of the MD now? Please be honest...

Edited March 14, 2006 by edi800

[alrose312]

But recently I found something like this:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Micr...k2496-main.html

Thanks for reminding me to look into this. I had come across this interesting device a while ago, but then somehow forgot about it.

[alrose312]

Thanks for reminding me to look into this. I had come across this interesting device a while ago, but then somehow forgot about it.

upon further inspection:

The major PROs: drag and drop, big buttons, input level controls, digital input

The major CONs: $89 for a 1GB flashcard, no mention of sound quality

[rayzray]

be careful; i had looked into the m_audio; and then read a LOT of negatives about it; can't remember them; but enough for me to stop looking into the unit.

just read up a LOT on it first.

[bobt]

Hi friends,

why do you consider the new MZ-RH1 interesting? It still uses the 1GB disc and the transfer rate is (well) "unsatisfying". I think that this new MD model comes much too late. Should have been here two years ago.

I have the MZ-NH900 and MZ-RH10 and have used them many times. And I have frequently had the dreaded "Access error" during download of the recording to PC.

But recently I found something like this:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Micr...k2496-main.html

This records straight to CF card (eg. 2GB, enough for more than 2 hours of 24bit WAV), and there's no Sonicstage - just files on a filesystem. I'm considering buying this thing and dumping both of my MDs.

For me, to record a live show on this Microtrack device and transfer it almost instantly via USB2.0 is much easier and faster than to wait 20 minutes when Sonicstage transfers my PCM recording (not to mention access errors). Additionally, there's no 90 minutes limit on the recording. And you can record in 16 bit and in 24 bit, and also the sampling frequency - 44/48/96 kHz.

Sorry Sony, you are too late :-(

Do you see any real arguments in favor of the MD now? Please be honest...

Let me see a few follars a gig, or a lot of dollars a gig, no brainer,

sexy and small, or ugly as hell,

again, no brainer.

Life if full of choices, and for the majority of us on this forum, we find the MD format very capable to what we need it for. Sure there are other alternatives, but when you facor in cost of media, and yes, ease of use, MD wins hands down.

Let us know how your adventures pan out.

Bob

[robin726]

I've got lots of stuff over on my site about the MicroTrack, including direct comparisons to MD, all the most recent reviews, etc. Start at the Audio Engineering category page.

I remain completely unimpressed by this new MD unit, which is certainly not optimised for recording. If it was it'd have improved pre-amps and big big dedicated controls for the most common functions: record, pause, lock.

This is just another cutesy redesign of the same old MD. We may like it, but it's not going to convert any heathen to the MD way. Far more likely is the future where the MicroTrack version 2 comes out with real phantom power and decent pre-amps. Then there will be no reason to use MD for recording. <sigh>

[ozpeter]

I'm surprised that Tekdroid's "good" points don't include

- An option to keep manual record settings ON even when the unit is off, instead of the unit automatically resorting to Automatic Gain Control (AGC) when the unit is powered off and on.

and the ability to turn of auto track marks (if these really are part of the feature set).

These together with what seems to be a "proper" record level control seem to me to make the unit significantly more useable for live recording, which is the point of this model it seems. Despite having an nh1 and and nh900 I'd be interested in this model on those grounds alone if it makes it to Australia.

[danreetz]

Not to mention that every time I work with M-Audio gear it feels cheap as hell. I still wish I'd never bought my FireWire 410. Every button, knob, and fastener on that thing just screams CHEAP. The XLR jacks are flimsy, and the thing can destroy itself it you hot-swap it. I want CF based recording much more than I want MD recording, but I still bought the RH-10 over the Microtrack, and the quality (build and recording) is phenomenal.

[MDGB2]

I like how people keep slating this new unit without even seeing one in the flesh, let alone actually using it.

Pure genius.

[Stuge]

But recently I found something like this:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Micr...k2496-main.html

Such augly looking device

No way you'd find AA battery in a high end unit. Too ugly, too bulky. The add on AA case, like it has always been done, is the way to go.

Adding two Li-Ion batteries like in cd walkman

[Petter156]

Still trying to make sense of DPC: Variable Recording Speed. Hmmmmmmm.

Digital Pitch Control?

Personally I doubt they´ll implement drag and drop file-transfers, but I hope I´m wrong. The small screen is a bit of a turn off as well, I really enjoy looking at the big OLED on my RH10. The placement of the screen is a nice touch for the recording community however.

[Sparky191]

I'd prefer filetree drag and drop to just drag and drop myself.

[Riccardo]

Hi friends,

why do you consider the new MZ-RH1 interesting? It still uses the 1GB disc and the transfer rate is (well) "unsatisfying". I think that this new MD model comes much too late. Should have been here two years ago.

I have the MZ-NH900 and MZ-RH10 and have used them many times. And I have frequently had the dreaded "Access error" during download of the recording to PC.

But recently I found something like this:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Micr...k2496-main.html

This records straight to CF card (eg. 2GB, enough for more than 2 hours of 24bit WAV), and there's no Sonicstage - just files on a filesystem. I'm considering buying this thing and dumping both of my MDs.

For me, to record a live show on this Microtrack device and transfer it almost instantly via USB2.0 is much easier and faster than to wait 20 minutes when Sonicstage transfers my PCM recording (not to mention access errors). Additionally, there's no 90 minutes limit on the recording. And you can record in 16 bit and in 24 bit, and also the sampling frequency - 44/48/96 kHz.

Sorry Sony, you are too late :-(

Do you see any real arguments in favor of the MD now? Please be honest...

Nice unit. Fast drag-and-drop file transfer without Sonic Stage is something minidisc users can only dream about.

However, your unit is expensive at $499.95. Add to that add 75 bucks or so for every gig of compact flash -- and you'll need at to buy least one since the supplied 64 mb card is quite limited.

You pointed out the 90 minute minidisc recording limit, this is true at PCM rate, however for a similar 1-gig compact flash, the m-audio has a limit of 100 minutes, so is this such a big improvement? True, you can use a larger capacity compact flash and record longer, if your batteries hold out. Recording on minidisc at Hi-SP and importing as a wav may be slow, but the quality is very good, and at Hi-SP you can fit almost 8 hours on a $6.99 1-gig minidisc.

The m-audio battery life during recording is estimated at 3-5 hours. With the internal battery and AA-sidecar, the RH10 can record for 8 at PCM, or 11.5 at Hi-SP. The internal battery and AA cell on the RH10 can be swapped for fresh ones in a matter of seconds, I couldn't discern what kind of rechargeable battery the m-audio uses, whether it is swappable or fixed-internal (like the iPod). I also see the m-audio can only be recharged via USB computer interface unless you buy the optional power supply. Oops.

Compact flash makes this unit too expensive to double as a music player and field recorder.

In summary the m-audio has distinct advantages (no Sonic Stage!!) however it also has its own set of limitations. But if it works for you, enjoy!

[Roamer]

The M-Audio has a fixed LiOn battery, so you can't swap it, which is an issue for long time recording. I also think that there is still room for HiMD as a recording device, and that Sony is moving the right way by producing this kind of unit (even if a bit late ...).

[rayzray]

{quote)Still trying to make sense of DPC: Variable Recording Speed. Hmmmmmmm.{outroquote)

i use the Variable Recording Speed a LOT. when i am getting a bit bored with my music; i SPEED it up without the pitch change; just a bit.

then listen to ALL the songs a bit faster.

it gives them "Life" and excitement; and makes me feel like i am in the middle of a "Party"; hearty; toddy; yeay, Ray. Yeay my two Hi-MD900's.!

[fatmuttony]

I've got lots of stuff over on my site about the MicroTrack, including direct comparisons to MD, all the most recent reviews, etc. Start at the Audio Engineering category page.

I remain completely unimpressed by this new MD unit, which is certainly not optimised for recording. If it was it'd have improved pre-amps and big big dedicated controls for the most common functions: record, pause, lock.

This is just another cutesy redesign of the same old MD. We may like it, but it's not going to convert any heathen to the MD way. Far more likely is the future where the MicroTrack version 2 comes out with real phantom power and decent pre-amps. Then there will be no reason to use MD for recording. <sigh>

Hey Robin, from reading your review(s) on your blog, I must say that in your own words, the MicroTrack is only as good as the HiMD Recorders. Are you saying that the alleged v2 MicroTrack will kick the alleged Gen3 HiMD recorder's butt? I don't understand. Can you clarify?

PS: This is hilarious!

Edited March 14, 2006 by Fat Muttony

[tekdroid]

For a while there I was thinking the DPC: Variable Recording Speed was something else entirely (related to recording, not playback). Thanks to those who clarified that for me. SpeedControl, I think Sony call it. Great feature, IMO.

ozpeter, yeh, somehow I neglected to mention the main live recording features everyone wanted.

Of course these are the main reasons to get this model. I think I was fixated a bit too much on the new design. Like you, I'll be interested in this model as well, but only at the right price.

Would be interesting to see if Sony backtracks on their pulling out of the market here. Now that they seem to have actually listened to their userbase, it seems absurd to not be selling Hi-MD here, but this is Sony

[motown_junky]

I to am very excited about the prospect of this device, however call me mr paranoid but I am just a little concerned that the expected official anouncement will be made on the 1st April !!!

[mcca6392]

When I first started reading this thread, I thought that this would indeed be the unit I pawn my N707 for. I've wanted two Hi-MD portables ever since I got my RH-10. I really don't have any justification for it, I guess. There are just some things I do where I'd love to have two, that's all.

But, 10 pages later, I'm not so sure I'm willing to drop $300 for this. I shocked my account enough to spring for the RH10 and 12 blank discs; I'm not so sure I can do this again.

Yes, it'd be nice to have the HD amp, but I really need an analog line-out - or at the very least, an line-out sound mode that doesn't reset when I control it via remote control.

If it had something like that, and, per se, drag-and-drop, then it'd be a no brainer. Otherwise, I think I can fall asleep with my RH10 pumping audio into my earphones with ease.

[shigzeo]

Let me see a few follars a gig, or a lot of dollars a gig, no brainer,

sexy and small, or ugly as hell,

again, no brainer.

Life if full of choices, and for the majority of us on this forum, we find the MD format very capable to what we need it for. Sure there are other alternatives, but when you facor in cost of media, and yes, ease of use, MD wins hands down.

Let us know how your adventures pan out.

Bob

Well, as for this m-audio product being ugly as hell, I do not know, but it is very small: http://www.transom.org/tools/recording_int...microtrack.html

As well, there is no mechanical noise that we all know has plagued directly plugged in mics to sony units. Any unit in fact will make some sort of mechanical noise. Couple the 89$ per blank media with the fact that it can record 24 bit and into MP3 without transcoding and really the cons are swallowed up in smoke. The rh-1 looks sexy and very much a reminder that sony still has some good designs, but a new design with very few proper feature enhancements is more expensive in the long run than a compeletely new machine that is over-the-top revolutionary. I am still the only person I know who has a Hi-MD and even in Japan, I have seen no one buy them, it was all iPod or old MD. Sexy looks are just not enough sometimes.

[A440]

Sexy looks are just not enough sometimes.

That's what I told Paris Hilton, but she never listens.

[twoheadedboy]

Nice unit. Fast drag-and-drop file transfer without Sonic Stage is something minidisc users can only dream about.

However, your unit is expensive at $499.95. Add to that add 75 bucks or so for every gig of compact flash -- and you'll need at to buy least one since the supplied 64 mb card is quite limited.

You pointed out the 90 minute minidisc recording limit, this is true at PCM rate, however for a similar 1-gig compact flash, the m-audio has a limit of 100 minutes, so is this such a big improvement? True, you can use a larger capacity compact flash and record longer, if your batteries hold out. Recording on minidisc at Hi-SP and importing as a wav may be slow, but the quality is very good, and at Hi-SP you can fit almost 8 hours on a $6.99 1-gig minidisc.

The m-audio battery life during recording is estimated at 3-5 hours. With the internal battery and AA-sidecar, the RH10 can record for 8 at PCM, or 11.5 at Hi-SP. The internal battery and AA cell on the RH10 can be swapped for fresh ones in a matter of seconds, I couldn't discern what kind of rechargeable battery the m-audio uses, whether it is swappable or fixed-internal (like the iPod). I also see the m-audio can only be recharged via USB computer interface unless you buy the optional power supply. Oops.

Compact flash makes this unit too expensive to double as a music player and field recorder.

In summary the m-audio has distinct advantages (no Sonic Stage!!) however it also has its own set of limitations. But if it works for you, enjoy!

You can power the microtracker through the USB port, as I understand. Many companies make a 4xAA battery pack that plugs into the USB jack.

CF is more expensive, but I would bet it's much more reliable for rewrites and I KNOW it's much quicker for erasing than Hi-MD. 6 GB @ 24/96, Hi-MD cannot compare here for high fidelity recording.

If only Sony would make this unit 2GB, I'd use it as my "everyday" 44.1/16-bit unit (3+ hrs PCM per disc) and then pick up a microtracker if I needed/wanted higher fidelity. As it stands, I will have to think long and hard before I pick this unit up to replace my NHF-800, which has AA built-in (which I like a lot). Hmm....

[robin726]

Hey Robin, from reading your review(s) on your blog, I must say that in your own words, the MicroTrack is only as good as the HiMD Recorders. Are you saying that the alleged v2 MicroTrack will kick the alleged Gen3 HiMD recorder's butt? I don't understand. Can you clarify?

I can see why this is confusing and so will try to explain. In my review of the RH-10 I conclude with a list of improvements I would like to see. The ones related to recording are:

• improve the mic pre-amp

• add a clock and timer functions (timestamp as well)

• redesign the hardware interface for usability

• remember all settings between shutdowns

Others that would enable the MD to compete with iRiver units, etc:

• enable drag'n'drop audio file transfers

• improve the headphone out quality

• provide gapless playback

• dynamic playlists

• add a radio (and ability to record from radio)

And I suppose I forgot one which would be great:

• full Apple compatibility (upload / download)

How many of these 10 things will the new RH-1 provide? Looks like about 2.5. So that's why it does not excite me. And I'm not even asking for phantom power, 24 bits, etc.

As for the MicroTrack, it has improved a lot since it was released, due to focussed firmware releases. (Remember, Sony doesn't even let us upgrade firmware!) In my slightly out-of-date comparison chart it wins in terms of:

• file transfer speed

• OS compatibility

• plugs (RCA and 1/4" TRS not crappy 1/8")

• digital input (24-bit)

• mass storage device support

• UI (nice big buttons)

• PCM recording time

• mono ready

But MD has it beat in these areas:

• size

• price

• removable battery

• battery life

• pre-amps (supposedly)

• media cost

Will the new RH-1 improve this situation? No. But we can be sure that any new model of the MicroTrack will. Especially if they do the following:

• increase battery life

• provide a removable battery

• improve pre-amps (so the supposed 24-bit resolution is worth more than ad copy)

• phantom power (real 48V please)

If they do this the cost of the MicroTrack will look like a complete bargain. In fact, for many applications it does already.

[fatmuttony]

I can see why this is confusing and so will try to explain. In my review of the RH-10 I conclude with a list of improvements I would like to see. The ones related to recording are:

• improve the mic pre-amp

• add a clock and timer functions (timestamp as well)

• redesign the hardware interface for usability

• remember all settings between shutdowns

Others that would enable the MD to compete with iRiver units, etc:

• enable drag'n'drop audio file transfers

• improve the headphone out quality

• provide gapless playback

• dynamic playlists

• add a radio (and ability to record from radio)

And I suppose I forgot one which would be great:

• full Apple compatibility (upload / download)

How many of these 10 things will the new RH-1 provide? Looks like about 2.5. So that's why it does not excite me. And I'm not even asking for phantom power, 24 bits, etc.

As for the MicroTrack, it has improved a lot since it was released, due to focussed firmware releases. (Remember, Sony doesn't even let us upgrade firmware!) In my slightly out-of-date comparison chart it wins in terms of:

• file transfer speed

• OS compatibility

• plugs (RCA and 1/4" TRS not crappy 1/8")

• digital input (24-bit)

• mass storage device support

• UI (nice big buttons)

• PCM recording time

• mono ready

But MD has it beat in these areas:

• size

• price

• removable battery

• battery life

• pre-amps (supposedly)

• media cost

Will the new RH-1 improve this situation? No. But we can be sure that any new model of the MicroTrack will. Especially if they do the following:

• increase battery life

• provide a removable battery

• improve pre-amps (so the supposed 24-bit resolution is worth more than ad copy)

• phantom power (real 48V please)

If they do this the cost of the MicroTrack will look like a complete bargain. In fact, for many applications it does already.

Right, so as of now, they're pretty much equal with HiMD having distinct advantages in on-the-field high fidelity recordings. Now, if the RH1 has only the features outlined above, and IF the Microtrack makes significant updates before releasing V2 (any idea on a probable date for V2?) then the MicroTrack has a slight edge. Is that what you're saying?

[Stuge]

That's what I told Paris Hilton, but she never listens.

She is sexy :oI may have other defination She also Looks yikes ... I never like her ..

Edited March 15, 2006 by stuge

[Damage]

Others that would enable the MD to compete with iRiver units, etc:

• enable drag'n'drop audio file transfers

• improve the headphone out quality

• provide gapless playback

• dynamic playlists

• add a radio (and ability to record from radio)

MDs and HiMDs always had gapless playback ability with recorded materials and materials compressed with ATRAC. With MP3s, there's still a gap, but not as horrible as the white DAP.

There were units in the Past (MZ-NH800F being the last) with AM/FM/TV radio tuners, but it was unable to record the radio programming when in radio mode.

And finally, there is a bit of a odd way of doing on the fly playlisting via bookmarks, but I think you're limited to 32 (or 60?) tracks per disc, and it has to be selected on an individual basis. This does need to be improved, but this actually happening is slim to nil.

Finally, I think I speak for few of us that believes that having a HD Digital Amp on the unit is a must... I think I'm spoiled rotten by the MZ-NH1.

[edi800]

Thanks for all the replies with such good links to reviews!

I agree that the new MD is very nice and sleek looking, but as a live recording enthusiast I'm always looking for hardware which will enable me to spend less time setting up (eg. manual gain control!) and transferring recordings.

In this regard the Microtrack appears to win hands-down. These are the points which appeal to me the most:

1. You don't have to wait ages for the recording to transfer to your PC (MD: USB1.0, Microtrack: USB 2.0).

2. You don't have to worry about holding the unit steady at the end of the recording ("System file writing" - Aaaargh!). In fact, you don't have to hold the unit steady at all.

3. No moving parts.

4. No 1GB limit for PCM recordings.

Of course it looks worse and is made of a quite ugly plastic. But after all we are not some "classic car lovers" but technology people. Looks worse, but records better, so who cares... (or not? ;-) )

But it seems that the Microtrack preamps are comparable to MD if it comes to 16-bit recordings.

Also I have a USB 4-battery pack, so I'll be able to power the unit for many hours.

The cost of the data media is higher, but I will need only one 2GB card (and I'll transfer the recording immediately eg. to my "the other white DAP ;-) with USB host").

I will post my findings after I get the unit. In different thread of course, because here this seems slightly OT.

Best regards,

edi800

[Top Cat]

MDs and HiMDs always had gapless playback ability with recorded materials and materials compressed with ATRAC. With MP3s, there's still a gap, but not as horrible as the white DAP.

Sony, bring on the cross-fade!

[rayzray]

a crossfade is not effective unless the fade out and fade in is all the way. at least when i cross fade; i find the slightest clip in volume at the end noticable and annoying. IMO (on Wednesdays only though.) tomorrow i may have another opinion.

[Weaves]

At first I thought this new unit would be great. However, the more I think about it, the more I think Sony is dumping their inventory. This is not a revolutionary unit. I am stuck between two options (or maybe three) now:

1) Either suck it up and buy either this one, or the RH10 from Japan.

2) Seriously consider the Edirol ER-9.

As a long time MD user (since the Sharp MS702), I think it's time maybe over.

hmmmmm, what to do?

[dunebug81]

If you have some good mics and preamp and run line in theres no reason not to go with the HIMD. Here is a song that i recorded the other night at a concert.

http://www.enemyzeo.com/greg/music/Please.mp3

Ive seen the microtrack in person and that thing is ugly!!

I will buy this new MD the first day its available.

-Greg

[rayzray]

i went to Boston to see this unit (Edirol);; and there were too many "Cons" and not enought "Pros".. it just turned me off..

once an MD'er;; always an MD'r;; expecially Hi_MD'ing;; Hi-Fi'ing and Hi-Rolling..

as much as i "Hate" Sony;; i must stick with their MD'ers;; Hi'' fliers;; and buyers..

a bling bling is always a bling;; and a blinger is always a blinger;; i am the king of blingers.. bling blang blungged till the end!

[MDGB2]

Your stark raving mad.

Worra guy!

Hi-MD4eva...

[The Low Volta]

If you have some good mics and preamp and run line in theres no reason not to go with the HIMD.

the mic preamp of the HiMD is more than sufficient in most cases (for quiter->mid-loud sounds)... often the mics will produce more self noise than the preamp as has been tested/proven here on these forums... (I believe by dex or mrsoul IIRC) (for loud noises just add the batt-box and use line in)... this will still be one of the best (if not the best) options for mid-budget/semi-pro recording out there IMHO (and I'm definitely buying one )

[Weaves]

Yea

I know what you guys are all saying. It comes down to this: I am betting between two probabilities:

1) That there will be drastic reductions in cost of SD cards in the next few years.

vs.

2) Sony will continue making Hi-MD.

To me, it just seems like Sony is doing too little too late. I wish they would just sell off their MD group to Sharp.

I will let you know what I decide in the next few months.

[borealand]

Sony has to understand that if it makes next HiMD units backward compatible with old MD-DATA format (maybe by only reading these old discs?) too they will sell lots more of the new units. Lots of musicians are still using MD-DATA multitracks, like the Yamaha MD-8 or the Sony themselves, and transferring their recorded tracks to pc through digital (and convert them to wav without the lossy passage analog-digital) would make them very happy today.

I think putting MD-DATA TOC reading would not be a difficult issue. So why not, Sony?

Or new HiMD multitrack units supporting both formats?

Oh, and what about a future Blue-ray HiMD?

[Sparky191]

1) That there will be drastic reductions in cost of SD cards in the next few years.

I can't see a 1GB SD card coming down to less then $8 a gig.

[Weaves]

They are down to $36US per Gig as of now (when buying a 2GB disk). This is quite a reduction since 1 year ago. Also, multiple companies are selling the SD's. As far as I know, Sony is the only one selling the Hi-MD discs. Therefore, you are more likely to see continued price cuts in the SD market.

Check out this link from nexttag. Look at the price chart in the upper right corner.

http://www.nextag.com/serv/main/buyer/Prod...isk_2_GB_Secure

Edited March 16, 2006 by Weaves