The real appeal of the MZ-RH1?

[spiff]

I may be a newbie in this forum, but I´m a 45 year old geezer living in Valdivia, Chile (I dare you to find it in a map...). I realize that my slow decline towards inevitable senility and my relative geographical isolation might color my judgment, but I would like to share my crusty point of view on what makes the Sony MZ-RH1 the best piece of portable audio yet.

Things were easy when I was in high school. Your choices in portable audio were simple then, you had none. Only during my first year of college I was able to buy a small and simple FM receiver with stereo headphones. Man, it was cool! However, you were always at the mercy of the dubious musical taste of the local DJ. I thought I died and went to heaven when I purchased my first Walkman tape player. It was as big as a brick (with a weight to match) and sucked really hard on four AA batteries. It had a hissy sound and only a few hours worth of electrical juice. Things slowly improved through the years with smaller and lighter machines, better endurance, auto-reverse and various Dolby filters. However the tape limitations put a hard ceiling on audio quality and linear track search was a real pain in the behind. Years later, the availability of portable CD players largely overcame these shortcomings, but the size/features cycle began all over again. My first portable CD player (a Magnavox unit) was as big as a brick and sucked really hard on blah, blah, blah. On top of that, it had no shock protection, no oversampling or digital filtering. It skipped really bad when you walked and couldn’t even read some commercial CD´s. It thought it was a real step backwards, despite better sound and random search ability. Even worse, since recordable CD´s were a laboratory curiosity then, carrying a day´s supply of the music you wanted to listen, implied carrying a lot of commercial CD´s (half of the tracks on average are just filler junk) and a lot of disk swapping.

Finally, when recordable digital units became available, my problems were finally solved, or so I thought. But the choices... I quickly discarded recordable CDs because of low capacity and large size. So, minidisc or solid-state memory player? I agonized for weeks between an early Sony R-series unit (I forgot which one) or the Diamond Rio mp3 player. In the end, I decided real-time transfer of my entire CD collection was too painful to contemplate and settled instead for a Creative Labs Nomad I unit. With a slot for a Smartmedia card, it also theoretically allowed for “unlimited storage”, but the price of removable memory at the time made it a crazy proposition. After many memory players, including the infamous iPod Nano, I rediscovered the minidisc at my local electronics store three months ago. It was a NH700 unit on sale for less than US$ 60 in local banana currency. To my delight I found that the HiMD format addressed all my previous objections. The sound quality! Unlimited storage! All the lost years!

Now, three months later, I own several MD recorders, including an MZ-RH1 and I began to ask myself what makes it so desirable. Granted, it is not perfect (it badly needs an optional AA battery module IMHO) and while SoundStage is in no imminent danger of being elected Software of the Year, it is a perfectly serviceable program. Before any of you shows up at my front door with a sawed-off shotgun, I dare you to first try the Nomad Music Manager over a parallel port connection… Yeah, it hurt that bad!

I also dare you to do a proper double-blind test and try to pick-up the RH1 from the rest of the HiMD units. I think without an oscilloscope, bat hearing or spider-sense, mere mortals cannot readily identify it, despite of all the loud (and subjective) claims over improved sound quality over previous HiMD recorders. So why is it so appealing? Because we are all attracted towards quality, especially mechanical quality. Take a careful look at the RH1 and you will realize what a diminutive and complex marvel it is. Compared with an all-electronic player, even an expensive one, the RH1 shines as a mechanical engineering show-off piece. People have always put a premium over mechanical complexity and precision, as it is far more difficult and complex to achieve than pure electronic accuracy. That’s why people are willing to pay a relative fortune for a Swiss mechanical watch, instead of a Casio full of bells and whistles, despite the latter being inherently more accurate.

Anyways, I apologize for the long rant and thank those of you with the patience to read it. Maybe the younger readers of this forum will find this concept a challenging one to expand upon.

[Richard]

Thank you for that great post - I really enjoyed reading it.

[allend]

I think without an oscilloscope, bat hearing or spider-sense,

quality!

[rich1068]

Nice one spiff.

Did you mention it just looks cool too?

[Avrin]

Great post, spiff!!!

[Sparky191]

To be honest I agree with you, spiff.

In another forum for old computers someone posted ""the techtoys I couldn't get/afford" years ago. To be honest theres an element of that as well for me.

[whatsleftofj]

I understand where you're coming from, for the most part. I'm about 20 years younger than you, Spiff, but it still all makes sense. I used to listen to my cassette walkman during recess at lunch in grade school, got my first huge, clunky, constantly skipping discman in middle school. Bought an Archos 20gb mp3 player in 2001, if memory serves, but was too frustrated by its bulk, display, lack of options.... just about everything except for the fact that it could hold 20gb of music!

Finally, I got the ipod of my dreams early last year, and what a disappointment it was. The sound quality wasn't too great, the battery life was AWFUL (it never got more than 8 hours), and it scratched so easily, even with a skin/cover on, I stopped treasuring it after a month or so. For a poor kid like me, feeling like I had just flushed $300 down the toilet hurt.

And then, voila!, I stumbled upon minidisc.org one day when looking for an alternate portable music player and remembering the fascination I had with minidiscs in my youth, which were at the time far too expensive. I was finally able to purchase an RH-10 last x-mas, and I've been in love ever since. My brother has pretty much taken it, though, so I'm looking VERY forward to hopefully purchasing an RH-1 this x-mas. Everyone here has rave review for it, and I know it won't disappoint.

And yes, as you put it, the RH-1 is a marvel of mechanics; one of its many, many desirable points. I quite enjoyed this post. I love hearing everyone's minidisc stories

[mdmania]

I also enjoyed the article as well. I also just recently bought an RH1 and I didn't even plan on buying one at all. I somehow balanced my earning and fortunately I had enough money to splurged for the RH1. I had been wanting to save up for the RH1 for several months now but somehow my other hobbies such as golf, hanging out with friends and other activities that involved money puts me behind from buying another recorder. I am so glad that I finally got one and I couldn't believe that I waited so long, If I had known then that I was going to as satisfied with my purchased of the RH1, I would have sacrificed earlier and could have bought the RH1 earlier. The most thing that I am satisfied with this new recorder is that it is fast and reliable particularly connected to PC. The previous one's such as MZ-M10 which I tried and sent back several months ago was a dissappointment. No upload and it was difficult to work with. The RH1 has a lot more to offer and more stable recorder. It is easier and the upload capability from Legacy md to Hi-md, no restricition and dynamic normalized is something that I have been hoping for which is finally obtain. Finally, Sony got it right this time...thnx!!!

[1kyle]

Great post

Remember also that the RH1 (and other Minidiscs) are great RECORDING instruments as well instead of mere playback units.

The Infamous Ipod is finally showing a drop in sales as people have either got bored with it or since nearly everyone has one it's becoming decidedly "Uncool".

The new Microsoft horror (ZUNE I think it's called --who comes out with these rediculous names --sounds like son of ZogZilla) ) has too many restrictions and what's the point of being able to copy a song on to a colleagues unit where it disappears after 3 plays.

Whoever thought of that one must have been under the influence of those funny smelling cigarettes you can buy in those famous or (infamous) Amsterdam "Coffeeshops".

At least with a MD you can give a disc to someone else who can then upload to another comnputer etc etc.

I'm also sure if you are listening on a train etc the whole "shared listening" concept of the Zune is not what people will want, and the unit is as fat as a brick anyway.

A decent MD unit still causes people to look at it especially these 2 units - The RH1 (current and best of the lot) and my favorite older recorder the (IMO) really exquisite N10. I still use this from time to time for playing legacy discs and for shorter recording sessions where I'm using legacy mode recording.

MD is still very much alive and kicking even if it's a "niche" market.

Cheers

-K

Edited November 16, 2006 by 1kyle

[dogville]

And what about the fact that i-pods only last for two years?

Edited November 16, 2006 by dogville

[MDX-400]

And what about the fact that i-pods only last for two years?

And what about the fact that this^ is utter nonsense?

You could say the same thing about MD units with heavy use--the pickups don't last forever you know

At the same time either could last several years with no problems as well.

[fowutsu]

great. i live the same thing. Here in Chile (La Serena), it's very difficult to find that thing. My first MD unit was a MZ n710, suffer a lot when is connected on my computer, and now have a mz rh1, have all i dream, and on my mz n710. well that all and great post.

[dogville]

And what about the fact that this^ is utter nonsense?

Are you sure?. Ask apple and then tell me what they told you . Publically admitted by them. Sure they might last more than 2 years but that has nothing to do with the fact of this statement made by apple.

regards

Edited November 18, 2006 by dogville

[Sparky191]

Are you sure?. Ask apple and then tell me what they told you . Publically admitted by them. Sure they might last more than 2 years but that has nothing to do with the fact of this statement made by apple.

regards

Thats simply the length of time they cover it under a warranty. Not that they only last 2 yrs. Unless you a statement you can link to that says otherwise.

Look at cars, laptops, or any other product, the warranty is almost always limited.

[milomind]

Thats simply the length of time they cover it under a warranty. Not that they only last 2 yrs. Unless you a statement you can link to that says otherwise.

Look at cars, laptops, or any other product, the warranty is almost always limited.

iPods have a 90 day parts and labor, and a one year warranty for parts. Same as Sony.

[Sparky191]

You can extend warranty up to two years for the iPod. I extended my Sony Laptop to a 3yr Sony warranty.

[mdmania]

You can extend warranty up to two years for the iPod. I extended my Sony Laptop to a 3yr Sony warranty.

I think Apple care covers 3 years for 60.00 I believed.

[Richard]

* Moved to Hi-/MD Evaluations + Criticisms section

[Sparky191]

I think Apple care covers 3 years for 60.00 I believed.

http://www.apple.com/support/products/applecareipod.html

[mdmania]

http://www.apple.com/support/products/applecareipod.html

hmm maybe I'm getting the iPod and Powerbook mixed up, I know that my Powerbook is covered 3 years with Applecare plan. Thanks for pointing out the iPod plan however.

[Sparky191]

http://www.apple.com/support/products/proplan.html

How long is the warranty on a HiMD?

[mdmania]

http://www.apple.com/support/products/proplan.html

How long is the warranty on a HiMD?

90 days

[ozpeter]

what's the point of being able to copy a song on to a colleagues unit where it disappears after 3 plays.

Sounds like they had some ex-Sony people to advise them on their DRM policies... praise be that Sony have now wised up about that kind of sales-denting stuff.

[jay209]

the biasness is funny here. anyway i own both.

i just like the md sound better than an ipod. i'm not sure if it's because the bass is bloated, but it sounds rounder than an ipod. beat me on the head about accuracy, but yea.

as for the size, i really only use 1 out of my 5 hi-md disc. just like i used 500mb of my 4gb nano.

two products two purposes two different sounds.

thanks for the review. i would have to concur about mechanical beauty. sometimes i wish i majored in ME

~jay

[Sparda]

Glad we are back on topic, I agree with spiff about the mechanical beauty of not just the RH1 but minidisc in general. I still turn heads whenever I pull out my RH1 to swap discs. I really just don't care much for iPods. Maybe one to play games with?

[spiff]

Dear friends:

Thank you all for your kind and generous comments.

First, I would like to apologize for the “spanglish” in my first post. Despite my best efforts, a fair bit managed to get through. I¨ll try to be more careful next time.

Perhaps I went a bit overboard with the mechanical elegance concept, but it never ceases to amaze me how we take for granted today what was a marvel of technology a few years ago.

Perhaps a simple example might illustrate the point better than a long winded rant.

By most everyday standards, 99.9% precision and accuracy (two different concepts!) are considered excellent. If you have the time and interest, simply check the squareness of the beams in your house, how level your floor is, the alignment and fit of the different panels in you car, the stability of the voltage and frequency in your household current, etc. To your surprise, you will find out that many of these are not even close to within 95% spec. and yet we don´t even notice or care.

A simple watch, however, is an entirely different matter. A 99.9% accurate watch will loose or gain approximately a minute and a half in a day (86 seconds) or about three quarters of an hour in a month. In this digital-quartz age most of us would consider such a watch a total piece of garbage. Yet such watches were considered OK for a cheapo timepiece made in Japan in the early sixties. (Yep! Back in the late fifties and early sixties made-in-Japan wasn´t a symbol of quality. The Japanese sold watches by the kilogram and went a far as naming one of their islands “USA”, so the could legally sell their products as “made in USA”. Today, of course, is a different story. The Koreans went through the same garbage to quality process, and we are still waiting on the Chinese).

The minidisc on the other hand, has to accurately read pits of 0.4 microns in a 6 cm disc (as a very ROUGH estimate of precision, please don´t flame for this!) this is better than 1 part in 150,000, or 99.9993% precision. This is an outstanding value for a mass-produced device where mechanical components are involved!

An equivalently accurate (all mechanical, no quartz) watch would have to loose no more than 15 sec per month. You can buy them from Switzerland, but they will cost slightly more than the US$ 380 you paid for the RH1!

[A440]

naming one of their islands “USA”, so the could legally sell their products as “made in USA”.

This is not, well, accurate. It's an urban myth.

http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/usa.asp

From the webpage:

"Nearly every country that imports goods requires them to be marked with the name of their country of origin, not a town or city, and it would have taken some circuitous (and probably expensive) routing to get goods marked "Made in USA" into other countries without anyone's noticing that they had originated in Japan. America, especially, Japan's largest market by far, would certainly have noticed the incongruity of goods marked "Made in USA" being imported into the USA."

[spiff]

This is not, well, accurate. It's an urban myth.

http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/usa.asp

From the webpage:

"Nearly every country that imports goods requires them to be marked with the name of their country of origin, not a town or city, and it would have taken some circuitous (and probably expensive) routing to get goods marked "Made in USA" into other countries without anyone's noticing that they had originated in Japan. America, especially, Japan's largest market by far, would certainly have noticed the incongruity of goods marked "Made in USA" being imported into the USA."

You are quite right!

I gladly take it back... Thank you for the correction.

[innlaeufer]

I may be a newbie in this forum, but I´m a 45 year old geezer living in Valdivia, Chile (I dare you to find it in a map...).

I found it on the map -- do I get a free music track for that?

And since I am 45 as well, there is a chance we might like the same sort of music.

But what I am fascinated with is that you find MD - equipment in chile. Here in Austria it is very hard to come by. And terribly expensive. And still worth the trouble.

[lynel]

Not only have I found it on the map, but I been there! Nice place Valdivia, say hello to my cousing Vilma over there!

Good to see people in Chile getting into this MD thing too.

I'm gonna have to go and buy one now!

Have to go and enjoy some music playing on my old Hi MD unit , with a glass of Pisco off course!

Feliz 2007 to all living in Chile! ( i envy you all ).

[spiff]

Dear Lynel and Innlaeufer:

Thank you for your kind words and congratulations on your geographical knowledge in finding this little spot in the middle of nowhere. Unfortunately you won nothing except the well-deserved satisfaction of knowing your stuff!

Amazingly, minidisc equipment is still plentiful and widely available in Chile, including MD blanks. This may be unbelivable, but there is a "special" chilean MZ-RH1 model. I don´t know what´s special about it, but at least that´s what my RH1 manual says. I suspect the lithium-ion battery might come from a different supplier (based from the markings) and the cable ferrite toruses might also be slightly bigger.

Unfortunately, the MD also seems on the way out as a mass consumer item in Chile, as most electronic stores are liquidating them. You can still get them from the local Sony Store though.

Also I´m am sorry to say that I traded the chilean summer for the canadian winter during the month of January because of a business trip!

Have a happy and successful 2007!

[1kyle]

Thats simply the length of time they cover it under a warranty. Not that they only last 2 yrs. Unless you a statement you can link to that says otherwise.

Look at cars, laptops, or any other product, the warranty is almost always limited.

Mind you if you buy a Car in the US after 6 months a little Red light appears on the dash with the message "Hey you are Cheating --You have 2 weeks left to buy a New Model before this one becomes defective and has to be replaced."

MD is still the only viable portable quality digital recording device and will continue until it's replaced by something else -- probably a recorder not much bigger than the current RH1 which could also capture Video. Proably a 20 - 40 GB removeable disc would be in order here. (Blu Ray type disc maybe as there will be a lot of these left over due to people not taking up the Format on the new DVD recorders).

Whist I tend to think that Blu Ray isn't now a viable option for use in domestic DVD Video units or even in home computers -(Hard disc units are now incresingly common for HDTV Video recording) we might see a Blu Ray type of MD recorder in the future. Sony will have to find a use for the Blu Ray that it's invested millions in and expecting that people in their millions (especially Adults) will view Films etc from the Blu Ray unit in the PS3 (Or does an XBOX have one ) is a totally flawed concept.

So we could see MD gen 4 although it won't be like the current MD.

Cheers

-K

Edited January 4, 2007 by 1kyle

[Sparda]

Didn't Sony also spend millions upon millions developing Betamax and UMD which both failed horribly? Both have just been left in the dust. Not that I'm against the idea of Blu-Ray in MD (I've actually asked for it before) but we can't assume so soon that the next gen will already follow up on Blu-Ray. And maybe Blu-Ray wouldn't fail as bad as some people think, I guess time will tell. Of course unless I have misinterpreted your meaning.

Edited January 18, 2007 by Sparda

[imkidd57]

Going to Blu-Ray would surely be bad news... we don't even know how long recordable DVDs will last, let alone these newer media types. Let's stick with MO technology, which is probably the digital recording medium with the best longevity.

The technology is already there for hand-held video. At the moment I can play a 350 MB .avi saved to a standard MD (formatted as HiMD) from my NH1 via USB2, so all that's lacking is a decoder and a little screen. With the size of the screen possible on these hand-held devices, there's no point to the extra capacity offered by Blu-Ray which is really designed for the huge bandwidth requirements of high definition AV recording or gaming.

Let's also not forget the cumulative appeal of Hi/MD: the ability to simply change a a disc if it gets full.

Edited January 27, 2007 by imkidd57

[cochra1]

Absolutely right - Hi-MD is the best portable digital medium out there for reasons of sound quality, longevity, and the fact it has removable media.

However, please see my post in the 'criticisms' forum with regards to SoundStage. You say you didn't wish to go through the task of recording your catalogue in real time. Well, if you were to take this (admitedly tedius) option, you would reap the rewards of superior quality over using SoundStage.

By the way, I've been using an MZ-NH600 for about four years now. The jog wheel packed in a few years ago, but I still never venture out without the player and a couple of discs!

Edited February 4, 2007 by KanakoAndTheNumbSkulls

[cochra1]

Dear friends:

Thank you all for your kind and generous comments.

First, I would like to apologize for the “spanglish” in my first post. Despite my best efforts, a fair bit managed to get through. I¨ll try to be more careful next time.

Perhaps I went a bit overboard with the mechanical elegance concept, but it never ceases to amaze me how we take for granted today what was a marvel of technology a few years ago.

Perhaps a simple example might illustrate the point better than a long winded rant.

By most everyday standards, 99.9% precision and accuracy (two different concepts!) are considered excellent. If you have the time and interest, simply check the squareness of the beams in your house, how level your floor is, the alignment and fit of the different panels in you car, the stability of the voltage and frequency in your household current, etc. To your surprise, you will find out that many of these are not even close to within 95% spec. and yet we don´t even notice or care.

A simple watch, however, is an entirely different matter. A 99.9% accurate watch will loose or gain approximately a minute and a half in a day (86 seconds) or about three quarters of an hour in a month. In this digital-quartz age most of us would consider such a watch a total piece of garbage. Yet such watches were considered OK for a cheapo timepiece made in Japan in the early sixties. (Yep! Back in the late fifties and early sixties made-in-Japan wasn´t a symbol of quality. The Japanese sold watches by the kilogram and went a far as naming one of their islands “USA”, so the could legally sell their products as “made in USA”. Today, of course, is a different story. The Koreans went through the same garbage to quality process, and we are still waiting on the Chinese).

The minidisc on the other hand, has to accurately read pits of 0.4 microns in a 6 cm disc (as a very ROUGH estimate of precision, please don´t flame for this!) this is better than 1 part in 150,000, or 99.9993% precision. This is an outstanding value for a mass-produced device where mechanical components are involved!

An equivalently accurate (all mechanical, no quartz) watch would have to loose no more than 15 sec per month. You can buy them from Switzerland, but they will cost slightly more than the US$ 380 you paid for the RH1!

Enjoyed your post, my friend, very nicely written.

[timonoj]

I agree...Nice post! And pretty good english

Even here in madrid it's hard to find any MD...They're not advertised on the major stores, just on the small ones, then even though some of them might have them, some of the employees won't even know about them. (not even aknowledge of the existance of such a thing). Even when they do know about them, they'll only have a few models. Lucky that one of them was the RH1.

It took my time to find some shops, and quite a lot more to find a good deal.

But I'm really satisfied with the achieved quality of this little toy. I used to play my music on a mp3 discman (when they were an unknown and weird thing). The Napa. Now THAT was a brick. But it were stolen, altogether my class notes and some other stuff. That was the change of my life. I started to look info for the minidisc, and I became in love with my poor old MZ-N510. It's battery lastS -it STILL works just as in the first day, for around 40-60 hours of playback (I used one of those cammera batteries), and it received more crashes during all these years than any other thing I ever had. Probably because nothing lasted more to keep receiving hits and drops. I didn't take too much care of it. It had a rough life. But it was incredibly nice. It lasted for too long, it had nice quality playback (on LP2), and it seemed to be indestructible. It is still on working condition, as I stated before. Plenty of scratches, and the door doesn't fit perfectly. But it works. And records. Just like the first day. Amazed with it, and willing to have good quality audio without bothering about the space, I just bought my brand new RH1. My poor old N510 (i think it has 6 years, is that possible?) is carefully stored in a draw, in it's original box. It deserves some rest. I'm really amazed how though this little piece of technology can be. Now i'll take quite a lot more of care with my new and shiny metal player (it just looks georgeous!). Hope that I can say it lasted that much.

And yeah, I still see turning back heads when I swap the discs. I guess we enjoy not following everybody's path with ipods

Edited February 6, 2007 by timonoj