Minidisc Disappearance

[tronato]

Hello!

When I discovered the existance of the Minidisc I thought then (and still do) that it is the best substitute for the Cassette.

Why is it dissapearing? Price?

I have 8 players recordes and cant understand why Sony is killing it.

Thanks

TRON

[Stuge]

Major Reason :Poor Marketing lead to its downfall.Sony wasn't able to convince people fully with the concept of MiniDisc .

Second Reason :With the Rise of Mp3 players + other recording instruments +many other factors lead to its death .

[sfbp]

To come right out of "left field" I would say that they made a bad decision over AtracCD's - NOT to make a consumer/hifi unit that plays them. Only some portables CD players, car headunits, and a couple of bookshelf systems (well maybe lots more but I just can't find them) actually play the darned things.

Too bad, because they knock the socks off MP3 CD's, effectively giving you MD quality without all the pain of buying MD, if your only need is to listen to canned music. MD is still great for recording, and they acknowledge this by dubbing the MZ-RH1 as "professional".

AtracCD's might have saved Sony's proprietary ATRAC format if marketed correctly. But they went on the assumption that MP3 CD's wouldn't ever catch on. Just like VHS (where Sony knew that Betamax was better), eventually someone fixed MP3 CD to sound OK.

[Strungup]

To come right out of "left field" I would say that they made a bad decision over AtracCD's - NOT to make a consumer/hifi unit that plays them. Only some portables CD players, car headunits, and a couple of bookshelf systems (well maybe lots more but I just can't find them) actually play the darned things.

Too bad, because they knock the socks off MP3 CD's, effectively giving you MD quality without all the pain of buying MD, if your only need is to listen to canned music. MD is still great for recording, and they acknowledge this by dubbing the MZ-RH1 as "professional".

AtracCD's might have saved Sony's proprietary ATRAC format if marketed correctly. But they went on the assumption that MP3 CD's wouldn't ever catch on. Just like VHS (where Sony knew that Betamax was better), eventually someone fixed MP3 CD to sound OK.

Actually Stephen , this is something I think I will agree with you on ...... Atrac CD's left a lot of people I know shaking their heads , saying to themselves " Yeah great i can play this on my portable , but nowhere else , My Car wont play it , my Home system wont play it " etc and the Portables that Played Atrac when they came out were fairly high for a Portable CD player so it wasnt a real turn on . But they do sound good .

[Loque]

It, in my opinion is a real shame.

There are obvious, competitive reasons why MP3 players will win out, one is the potential size and design on the players, others is the style and ease of use. The average Joe doesn't seem to care too much about audio quality, so long as the player is highly portable and looks good and, crucially, is backed up by excellent software, for example the ipod.

Sonicstage contributed massively to the downfall of the Minidisc format, it was poor software. Having hardware specific software is ok, again going back to itunes and the ipod, but it has to be very well done, frequently updated and well supported. I don't think Sonicstage ticks any of these boxes. Sony's solution to this could have been to open the format up a little to allow third party developers to implement their own software, but it makes me scoff even writing 'Sony' and 'opening up to third party developers' in a sentence.

The physical size of the players doesn't help as I've had many of my friends comment on the brick like nature of an MD player. I frequently remind them that this is a double edged sword as my MD player has been run over and shot and still works.

I'm suprised there's nothing really in the in-car entertainment market for them. In my eyes they are the ultimate head unit simply because of the versatility of the MD itself. You can quite happily chuck an MD into the backseat knowing it wont shatter or break.

It is indeed a great shame though that they do seem to be running scarce. Sony haven't helped themselves by pricing the RH-1 so high, but from what I hear it is quite a machine. Coupled with the fact that the only place that seems to sell minidisc is the local sony store. Honestly. My local tech store sells Floppy Disks, but not minidiscs. Is that what things have come to.

I'm quite suprised that Data MDs didn't take off either to be honest. Again, it's a much more hardwearing and versatile format to Floppies or even CDs

[mmp64]

There are numerous reasons, but in the States, I think the thing that really killed MD was NetMD. NetMD was introduced before iPods had become completely ubiquitous, so they had a chance to succeed (at least for a time) - but the packaging was VERY misleading in that the most prominent text was "MP3." This gave people the reasonable idea that they could hook the unit up to their PC, and drag their MP3 files to these cool, little, and cheap blank MDs. Unfortunately, nothing could have been further from the truth, given the unpleasant experience of using early versions of SonicStage (OpenMG Jukebox or whatever it was called) - with the conversion to ATRAC, the check-in, check-out nonsense, etc. etc. I think if they had truly enabled you to drag-and-drop MP3s, even through SonicStage (though through Explorer would have been better) - MD would have held it's own for another couple of years.

Being the total MD geek that I am, I really liked NetMD and still use them as my primary units, because they are cheap on eBay, take standard "AA" batteries, and are built like tanks.

[Modernaire]

My take - The MiniDisc format was a success, just not as obvious as say in Europe and Asia, but it was a success. Whats changed really is the music industry, Im giving CDs another 5 to 10 years until they are phased out as well. Yes, lossy portable players went hand in hand with the Napster revolution as I call it and that spoiled people into hoarding as much as they could and Apple ceased an opportunity and here we are.

But I think its just part of an evolution of how music delivery (for lack of a better word right now, at this hour) is going to change. Online lossy music access and playlists will replace audio-specific portable devices like the iPod and such. You'll be able to access your music, that you purchased or whatever, from your cellphone/entertainment hybrid device. Oh, and lossless downloads will also prevail with full on cover artwork available for your giant flat screen home computer, downloadable or remote music entertainment. Streamed content as we become a less wired society around the developed world.

I own no Crystal Ball along with my MiniDisc portables, but its not, at least from my view, a complete Sony failure. Its just how will you fit into the future model.

[Guest Gray Rider]

I think it has really been my best musical experience ever even though I've been using Hi-sp. Deep bass, clear and bright sound etc. It just sounds better than HDD players. I bought an iPod three times and had to resell it on each occasion because of its dreadful sound. Cold lifeless and tinny even though I was using WAV. Unlike the MZ-nh1/Mz-rh1 where I was continually delighted by the sound. I now have a Kenwood player that has a better amplifier and it sounds okay but still cold and metallic. I just like minidiscs better because it gives you a 'pack' of songs you compile yourself and it goes through all these tracks in shuffle mode whereas with HDD players its all random and its possible to hear repeated tracks and missed tracks in shuffle mode... but mostly its the sound. And they were getting better and better because of improved electronics. I just hope sony makes Blu-ray minidiscs or something (then I would be using uncompressed PCM for each 'packed' disc and that would be perfect) I don't really want to use HDD players, I really don't. Even if sony continues with non Bluray Himd that would be perfect too.

[Ascariss]

the new sony mp3 players continue the tradition of great sound and you can use playlists on the new devices so you can easily make 'packs' of songs if you wanted to.

minidisc is dead, it was a nice medium and had potential but unfortunately sony got it wrong with atrac and minidisc, this is not what people wanted, people wanted mp3 and hdd/flash, ie apple

[Ascariss]

there is nore to the mp3 player market than just ipods with many of the companies out there sounding quite good and even better than some of the sony units.

[Stuge]

**Threads Merged**

[Strungup]

My take - The MiniDisc format was a success, just not as obvious as say in Europe and Asia, but it was a success. Whats changed really is the music industry, Im giving CDs another 5 to 10 years until they are phased out as well. Yes, lossy portable players went hand in hand with the Napster revolution as I call it and that spoiled people into hoarding as much as they could and Apple ceased an opportunity and here we are.

But I think its just part of an evolution of how music delivery (for lack of a better word right now, at this hour) is going to change. Online lossy music access and playlists will replace audio-specific portable devices like the iPod and such. You'll be able to access your music, that you purchased or whatever, from your cellphone/entertainment hybrid device. Oh, and lossless downloads will also prevail with full on cover artwork available for your giant flat screen home computer, downloadable or remote music entertainment. Streamed content as we become a less wired society around the developed world.

I own no Crystal Ball along with my MiniDisc portables, but its not, at least from my view, a complete Sony failure. Its just how will you fit into the future model.

Somewhat agreed , ......... Cd's and most other tangible media are being eroded , ......I bought a "Pristine " , I mean EXTREMELY clean Boston album on Vinyl yesterday for just 100 yen , a Dollar by US standards ........ It actually hurt my feelings .. and there is no way the Downloaded version of the same will sound even remotely as good .

[Strungup]

I just went to the Apple Website , and looked at the new iTunes ......

Vinyl just became digital .............. the new View of iTunes is " LP " mode , ( not to be confused with MDLP for the newbies)

But the View is Album cover view instead of CD cover art ...... fold open Album cover with interactive menu

,.......... My Real Vinyl is interactive .... honest . You have to interact with it to get the sound off of it .

[Giant_Rick]

So what's the LP mode?

I guess it's the same song as in mp3 quality but 'processed' in some audio editor like Cubase or SoundForge and pllied with some plugins to imitate the beautiful 'noise' of the old, fashioned vinyl?

If yes, it's ridiculos to me.

[Loque]

The MP3 market has moved on a lot, I won't try to deny this, and there is plenty more to it than the iPod, this is very correct.

I personally own a Cowon s9, it's a lovely machine when it is working properly. It's widely regarded as one of the best, readily available MP3 players. Whilst I don't have a great deal of music on there it is in lossless forma, and I have a decent pair of 'phones connected to it, and to be quite honest it sounds pretty good.

So good infact, that I have stopped carrying my Minidisc player around with me, it's getting on a bit now, and I don't want to drop it or something, or lose it when I am clubbing or whatever. My s9 offers a nice tradeoff between sound quality, looks, and portability. Sound Quality is at the forefront of its image (please take note apple) and pretty much everything else is second best. It is a fussy little machine, but it is one that I would consider using as a replacement for my portable player.

The sound quality, I believe is still not as good as a well recorded SP disc to be quite honest, but it's not far off and I can quite happily roam around with it. It won't be replacing my deck or my In car system though.

[Strungup]

So what's the LP mode?

I guess it's the same song as in mp3 quality but 'processed' in some audio editor like Cubase or SoundForge and pllied with some plugins to imitate the beautiful 'noise' of the old, fashioned vinyl?

If yes, it's ridiculos to me.

No , you didnt read the post well , LP as in LP COVERS , Fold Open , Read the Lyrics , Look At Artwork , etc , nothing to do with codecs .

It is about the artwork

[NewCreatures]

Hello!

When I discovered the existance of the Minidisc I thought then (and still do) that it is the best substitute for the Cassette.

Why is it dissapearing? Price?

I have 8 players recordes and cant understand why Sony is killing it.

Thanks

TRON

I've noticed a lot of the online electronic and music instrument stores have notices for the Sony MDW80 and Sony HMD1GL (Hi-MD) blanks, " This product has been discontinued by the manufacturer" or "We no longer carry this product" and sometimes directed to their Compact Flash (.wav / MP3) recorders instead. Not everywhere are they sold out but you may have to buy them soon. I put in a Search into Yahoo " blank minidisc discontinued" and surprised how many stores are no longer carrying them or come up with the word "Discontinued".

[mmp64]

the new sony mp3 players continue the tradition of great sound and you can use playlists on the new devices so you can easily make 'packs' of songs if you wanted to.

minidisc is dead, it was a nice medium and had potential but unfortunately sony got it wrong with atrac and minidisc, this is not what people wanted, people wanted mp3 and hdd/flash, ie apple

You are correct. I have a Sony NWZ-A816 and it sounds fantastic. I did a lot of comparisons between it and my Sony MDs, NW-HD1 and iPods. It is very, very close to my MZ-NH1, which is my best-sounding MD.

[BIGHMW]

minidisc is dead, it was a nice medium and had potential but unfortunately sony got it wrong with atrac and minidisc, this is not what people wanted, people wanted mp3 and hdd/flash, ie apple

As for MiniDisc being "dead", on behalf of myself, GuitarFxr, bobt and many others from the old MDCF who still use it, all I can do is say this.....

BULL.

As for Sony and ATRAC, Sony mis-marketed (at first) the MD as the successor to CD, in which it is not. But, it is the perfect replacement for the ever-flawed cassette tape, and when I got into MD back in 1998, I pretty much did away with using cassette tape as a recording medium.

How ever you are right that the market wanted to carry more than just a few MD's worth of music, that is why, even with Sony trying to counter with Hi-MD, that the format failed, but, only on the portable playback unit basis. Even I gave in by getting a few NW-HD5 units, many for parts or accessories that came with them, and 2 others that were N.O.S. (new in U.S. blister package!!!) at that!!!

I still use MD on a regular basis for all home, car, and studio recording purposes, including for upload (through my MZ-RH1, in which I own 3 of) onto SonicStage CP 4.2 to my NW-HD5 HDD Walkman, so the ATRAC family of formats is still alive and well here at BIGHMW.com Headquarters. I also use it to record most of my vinyl and cassette collection to preserve the original tapes (many of them over 20 years old from my days in high school and having gone to school with Cindy Margolis for a year at that in 1983-84!!!), and we all know what happens when you run a tape over and over... it wrecks it that much more, so MD can still be quite handy when needed.

"I'm Ray Jackson and I approved this message."

[sfbp]

I also use it to record most of my vinyl and cassette collection to preserve the original tapes (many of them over 20 years old

Heh, many of my cassettes are older than that, my LP's are 25-30 years old, and my reel to reel tapes are 40+ years old in some cases.

Agree 100% that the cassette was an unfortunate diversion. Finding MD was my first "Eureka" since ReelToReel tapes, and what has lured me back to making my own collections of recorded music. (you do know of course that Sony's first product was a Tape recorder?)

[david j a n]

Hi. I am a new member to the group. Agree with the comments posted. Minidisc is great format. Started several years ago with a net MD, then bought a couple of (Sharp, sorry!) MD recorders, and a mint Sony MDS-JE330 just a couple of weeks ago via ebay. Never had any problems with recording on minidisc. Excellent audio quality.

Am a supporter/crew member of the Radio Caroline ship, the Ross Revenge currently moored in Tilbury, Essex. Both the ship and land based studios arec fitted out with Sony decks, which are in regular use.

Sony could have extended the life of MD and ATRAC if they had the will to do it. Seems they just gave up. Our loss.

Cheers, David

[coolerthanelvis]

I think the MD would have gotten a much needed boost if the PSP had been able to play them. Sounds like a no-brainer to me. Engineers to corporate: "You want us to make a portable hand-held entertainment device with an optical disc reader built in? Let's make it MD compatible!" Corporate response: "And support a format that is already enjoyed by millions of people all over the world?? Naaahhh." [blam!...bullet going through fancy italian loafers]

The UMD isn't so universal, is it?

[Ferdelaf]

I also use it to record most of my vinyl and cassette collection to preserve the original tapes (many of them over 20 years old from my days in high school ... I'm Totally agree

and having gone to school with Cindy Margolis ... Oh man!! I envy you!! for a year at that in 1983-84!!!),

[PsychoPimpKiller]

In some ways the minidisc format is dead. They don't make it anymore so they wanted it to die and be replaced with ipods, mp3 players and what not. We still use them so they are not dead, just a little harder to come by.

I remember hearing about them back in the 90's when I was in high school and thinking; "What a great idea, I love it". Unfortunately I didn't get a minidisc player until around 2003, but ever since then I have bought a few more. I really thought MD's would replace CD's.

Seems to make sense to me, the disc has a protective cover on it so it won't get scratched, sounds awesome to me. I hate scratched CD's. Well, I'm not going to let it die. I love MD and don't ever plan on giving it up.

Oh, a Blu-ray MD would be the best thing ever. I doubt it will ever happen, but we can dream, can't we? I know I will.

LONG LIVE THE MINIDISC

[Guest Gray Rider]

I just got a Cowon S9 mp3 player and I must say I am pretty impressed. The sound is kind of 'soft' but it has a really great 'Jeteffects' function which can make the sound bigger. It's really cool and on par with my RH1. I guess I'm not really upset now that md is dying and being replaced by mp3 players if they can sound this good. I like the touchscreen too and it even has radio that has hardly any interference. I'm happy considering now I can pack WAV files together without being limited by disc space. I'll be looking to buy the sony x series and a series next...

[Giant_Rick]

No , you didnt read the post well , LP as in LP COVERS , Fold Open , Read the Lyrics , Look At Artwork , etc , nothing to do with codecs .

It is about the artwork

Oh, I understand now.

I misread your post.

Well, it's a nice feature that iTunes gives.. but I prefer to hold physically the artwork, booklet, etc.. in my hands

Another thing that made MD unpopular is that it's easier to put songs on a mp3 player than on a MD.. with mp3 it's only copy&paste, with NetMD or Hi-MD you have to open SonicStage or Simple Burner, then convert the files and finally transfer them.. which tooks a lot of time.

By the way this amorning i was listening to some music @ 64 kbps on my NH900.. wow, it sounds great!

[mmp64]

The problem is - you can still go to any CVS Pharmacy in <Your Town> and buy a cassette player, and probably even blank cassettes. Not so w/ MD. So - yeah - it is dead. Dead like Saturn (I have one of those too). Doesn't mean we need to stop using it, but eventually, all of our units will die and there won't be any "New in Box" units to buy on eBay. For the older among us - we are probably OK (at least until our hearing has gone and it doesn't matter anymore). But for the younger ones - I would not invest a lot in recording stuff on MD (concerts, guitar practice, etc. etc.). Particularly on HiMD units, which seem to be very fragile.

[dms09]

Was MD exceptionally popular in the UK or something? Amazon UK sells brand new MZ-RH1's and I only have to walk into HMV to pick up a box of new blank MD80s...

[mmp64]

Was MD exceptionally popular in the UK or something? Amazon UK sells brand new MZ-RH1's and I only have to walk into HMV to pick up a box of new blank MD80s...

It would seem to me that yes, MD was more popular in the UK than in the States. Just based on reading posts here for many years. It would be interesting to consider why. Possibly because Apple was later to the market in the UK vs. the US.

[dms09]

It would seem to me that yes, MD was more popular in the UK than in the States. Just based on reading posts here for many years. It would be interesting to consider why. Possibly because Apple was later to the market in the UK vs. the US.

Yes that's true. Also when iPod's eventually appeared, they were quite big. It wasn't until they were small enough for the gym that they exploded. Having said that, Apple market share in the UK has always been flimsy. iPod is by far the most popular player but on a day to day basis I see a lot of older ones, or Creative Zen's. iPhones are still a rare sight. Even in central london.

[chadergeist]

Hello!

When I discovered the existance of the Minidisc I thought then (and still do) that it is the best substitute for the Cassette.

Why is it dissapearing? Price?

I have 8 players recordes and cant understand why Sony is killing it.

Thanks

TRON

I will never give up on this format. I love it to death. I hate the MP3 and Ipods with disgust. I'm mad at Sony too! I will look high and low for blanks and devices when my devices start to fail. When i buy these things i will look on that the person selling it doesn't know what they lost. I will plan on having t-shirts and stickers made to show the love i have on this format. When i do make them i can think about making them for others too with a nice price?

[BIGHMW]

I myself acquired 120 more new blank MD's this past week. I amk currently stocking up on the Premium Gold Series MD's making my total of MD's (both recorded and blank) almost 800 total. As for the Hi-MD's I will hopefully reach 100-120 Hi-MD blanks (all HMD1GL, 2nd generation) by early next year, but as mentioned, you won't find blanks even at places that were for years reliable and dedicated to MD like MiniDisco, and MiniDisc Access. Even Sony no longer manufactures them, check out Amazon.com, under "Discontinued by manufacturer" it states "Yes". They are still available on Amazon.com, but supplies are limited and getting lower as I am writing this.

This is the 11th Hour for MiniDisc, and all of us should act and scrounge up any and every blank we can find, even if they are used on eBay, because NIB MDs are getting harder and harder to find, so get 'em now before they are gone for good!!!

[Hungerdunger]

As for the Hi-MD's I will hopefully reach 100-120 Hi-MD blanks (all HMD1GL, 2nd generation) by early next year

Is there any reason you're collecting only 2nd generation Hi-Mds, apart from them looking more attractive?

[BIGHMW]

Is there any reason you're collecting only 2nd generation Hi-Mds, apart from them looking more attractive?

Yes. The 2nd Generation Hi-MD's (#HMD1GL) are improved over their O.G. versions, and also they don't come in too big of a case (the now-traditional slide case as opposed to the bigger O.G. hinge case), but also I have been a stickler for both quality and also for having a consistant batch of blank media, instead of having a few from here, and a few from there, plus, you know what you're gonna get out of them when you record/play/upload/download them.

[md user]

Hello!

When I discovered the existance of the Minidisc I thought then (and still do) that it is the best substitute for the Cassette.

Why is it dissapearing? Price?

I have 8 players recordes and cant understand why Sony is killing it.

Thanks

TRON

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Hello all! (This is my first post.)

I JUST discovered minidisc earlier this year!

Maybe my humble story adds a little to understanding why MD didn't last ...

You see, I was wow'd by the Walkman in the 80's, and like many others copied vinyl to cassette, for portable and car use - all from a 'budget' Hi-Fi stack.

Then, time flew, and CD players came out. And was wow'd by digital sound!

So, I bought a CD-deck, a personal CD-player, and a car-CD stereo. (Spot the pattern?)

Then (time flew) and flash-players came out. And was wow'd by their compactness! (Although having only a few albums at 320kbps on the stick made it less attractive as time went on.)

Then, time flew, and I seemed to lose interest in music - the original 'sparkle' had all the while be waning compared to the start.

Now, you may ask, why didn't I buy an MD-recorder in the 90's?

Simple, I didn't know that they existed! I mean, did I see them in Currys? in John Lewis? in Tescos? used by Cliff Richard? :-} by ANYONE in the street (over 25 y/o)?

Now, come to think about it, I probably did see them in a Sony store, once ... and I seem to remember that those 'small-square-player-things' COST A LOT ... especially as I could still get a good tape player at Argos for

[chadergeist]

Major Reason :Poor Marketing lead to its downfall.Sony wasn't able to convince people fully with the concept of MiniDisc .

Second Reason :With the Rise of Mp3 players + other recording instruments +many other factors lead to its death .

They are not dead in my book! I will never accept the Ipod or MP3 players! Even if i have to pay a arm and a leg for blank MD's, i will do so!

[Azureal]

So I took a pic of my stash to share with you all. Am I crazy or what? My wife certainly things I am ... I want to have enough to last through the rest of my days, I guess!

[scarrabri]

Was MD exceptionally popular in the UK or something? Amazon UK sells brand new MZ-RH1's and I only have to walk into HMV to pick up a box of new blank MD80s...

Hi its still popular here in the uk i have a Sony MDX-CA680X car player in my car,and my mates cant believe the awesome sound, in my home i have the sony MDS-SD1 DECK, AND THAT ROCKS, and my walkman is a mz-n505 ,and it sure is something, i buy all my discs and pressit label making kits and every thing i need from Amazon uk, so no minidisc is not dead ,even the kids in the street are asking about them,minidisc rocks Brian

[Arr-Nine-Hundred]

So I took a pic of my stash to share with you all. Am I crazy or what? My wife certainly things I am ... I want to have enough to last through the rest of my days, I guess!

Azureal, that stash is awesome. I especially like the wooden-topped towers, the Bianca and Sony ES 80's and the neatness of the layout. Makes me want to source a few packs of Bianca's right now as I have none. Thankfully, my wife is pretty indifferent to my MD addiction but she appreciated some of the compilations I made for her. She would sometimes hear a song on the radio and ask me to add it to an MD. Back in my MD heydey I created several compilations of the best Bollywood music set-pieces... recorded straight from the DVD so I would get a bit of dialog at either end of the scene. I had a Kenwood in-car MD [1] at the time and among my family I was popular for having a good selection of music in the car. This was 2003/04 before this era of headunits with USB ports for DAPs so it was pretty unusual for people to hear a custom-made compilation in CD-quality.

Anyhow, about MD was/is popular in the UK. I'm not sure, I see everyone with an iPod these days (or at least white headphones which I assume are connected to an Apple device). In shops I do see the occasional 5 or 10 MD pack for sale in Dixons, HMV etc, strangely they are sometimes a bit on the expensive side. I think they were popular but around the iPod Mini launch (2003/04?) I think the decline started. I recall helping a few friends list their N710 on eBay. They went for ~£75-£100 versus about £10-20 these days. There is a huge PC World store near me that also sells DAPs, I'm talking aisles upon aisles of shiny DAPs. The sales droids there are always eager to help and I'm tempted to sometimes ask them if they have "anything MiniDisc?" just to see the reaction ;-)

[1]

[md user]

There is a huge PC World store near me that also sells DAPs, I'm talking aisles upon aisles of shiny DAPs. The sales droids there are always eager to help and I'm tempted to sometimes ask them if they have "anything MiniDisc?" just to see the reaction ;-)

Naughty!

"Please, can I have a go too"?

Nah, it sounds too easy - they probably wouldn't even know that they existed!

(Forget the C90-stack system gag then ...)

mdmad.